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  1. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    And I was saying it was great that Iwakar found studies that said a 'pyschopath' could be taught empathy, and that I'm not surprised about that, because when a person has enough will power to change, I believe he (she) can.
    While they did say it "seemed" that consistent, affectionate parenting could mitigate CU traits, there was absolutely nothing in the article to support a conclusive "cure" or "therapy." They specifically used the word "hope" with good reason.


    There is a lot of contention within the article itself and much of medical science and academia. So far, it appears the professional communities at large have no consensus on diagnosis or therapy. They don't agree on terminology (sociopath/psychopath), they don't agree on assessing a correct diagnosis (because there are a lot of overlapping symptoms of various conditions that they can't be sure deserve their own label), whether to label at all due to stigma and lack of conclusiveness, whether to treat, and to what degree of effectiveness treatment can provide if any.

    If anyone reads this article and feels that their position (whatever it is) has been vindicated, they didn't read the article thoroughly. I finished that article with a lot more questions than answers.

    @Within I have a question for you. In the article, the author says that there is no functional difference between the terms sociopath and psychopath, but I'm sure that I have read elsewhere that they are different. Being that you've written a dissertation on the topic, can you provide some clarity for the layperson?
    "The purpose of life is to be defeated by greater and greater things." - Rainer Maria Rilke

  2. #22
    Senior Member UniqueMixture's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    exactly. the concentration of psychopaths is 4X greater in the business world than in society as a whole
    But, one does not lead to the other per se. I've seen the think between psychopathy & ceos and between ceos and lack of development or signaling ing the amygdala, but it does not necessarily follow that this is also true for psychpaths. Or do you have a link that I am unaware of?

    @iwakar has there been a comparison of children with genetic predisposition to psycopathy raised in affective nuturing high attachment setting vs not?

    I know behavior and environment regulate gene expression so it is not useful to think of it as "innate" per se. There is a whole field based on RNAi to get genes to express themselves differently with diff classes of drugs, but variance in behavior (like hugging) also alter neurotransmitter levels among other things.
    For all that we have done, as a civilization, as individuals, the universe is not stable, and nor is any single thing within it. Stars consume themselves, the universe itself rushes apart, and we ourselves are composed of matter in constant flux. Colonies of cells in temporary alliance, replicating and decaying and housed within, an incandescent cloud of electrical impulses. This is reality, this is self knowledge, and the perception of it will, of course, make you dizzy.

  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by UniqueMixture View Post
    @iwakar has there been a comparison of children with genetic predisposition to psycopathy raised in affective nuturing high attachment setting vs not?
    I don't know, but I'm guessing it'd be worth finding out the details of that early study that Frick is referring to:
    No one has yet tested such treatments in C.U. children, but Frick notes that one early study indicated that warm, affectionate parenting seems to reduce callousness in C.U. kids over time — even in children who initially resist such closeness.
    He doesn't specify, so I don't know what he's referring to and the author doesn't mention it.

    Here's an academic article that references Frick and Lynam from the NYT article and some of their published work from 1994: Adolescent psychopathy and personality theory--the interpersonal circumplex: expanding evidence of a nomological net.

    I'm going to bold something from the start of the paper that might intrigue our type-enthusiasts:
    Recently, Widiger and Lynam (1998) and their colleagues (e.g., Brinkley, Newman, Widiger, & Lynam, 2004; Lynam, Whiteside, & Jones, 1999; Miller, Lynam, Widiger, & Luekefeld, 2001; Widiger, 1998) have argued that psychopathy can be understood from the perspective of the Five-Factor Model of personality (FFM; McCrae & Costa, 1990). The model emphasizes five broad domains of personality: extraversion, agreeableness, conscientiousness, neuroticism, and openness.
    The Interpersonal Circumplex provides measures of eight categories of interpersonal variables that are referred to as octants. The octants of the interpersonal circle are: Assured-Dominant (PA), Arrogant-Calculating (BC), Cold-hearted (DE), Aloof-Introverted (FG), Unassured-submissive (HI), Warm-Agreeable (LM), and Gregarious-Extraverted (NO).
    "The purpose of life is to be defeated by greater and greater things." - Rainer Maria Rilke

  4. #24
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iwakar View Post
    I'm going to bold something from the start of the paper that might intrigue our type-enthusiasts:
    I wonder how the collection of brain activities overlaps. Speaking as one myself, I suspect a large number xxTx types don't have a lot of feeling-empathy going on. But lots of us are justice-empathetic, you know? Doing the right action to keep things fair and right? While a lot of xxFx types are feeling-empathetic but, if no one's feelings are going to get hurt, may be comfortable passively watching something unjust play out without intervening.
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
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  5. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    I wonder how the collection of brain activities overlaps. Speaking as one myself, I suspect a large number xxTx types don't have a lot of feeling-empathy going on. But lots of us are justice-empathetic, you know? Doing the right action to keep things fair and right? While a lot of xxFx types are feeling-empathetic but, if no one's feelings are going to get hurt, may be comfortable passively watching something unjust play out without intervening.
    I'm curious too. There's still a lot to be learned.

    In the 1970s, the psychiatry researcher Lee Robins conducted a series of studies on children with behavioral problems, following them into adulthood. Those studies revealed two things. The first was that nearly every psychopathic adult was deeply antisocial as a child. The second was that almost 50 percent of children who scored high on measures of antisocial qualities did not go on to become psychopathic adults. Early test scores, in other words, were necessary but not sufficient in predicting who ultimately became a violent criminal.
    I wonder if disturbed IxTx versus ExTx children trend in suspected diagnoses.
    "The purpose of life is to be defeated by greater and greater things." - Rainer Maria Rilke

  6. #26
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iwakar View Post
    While they did say it "seemed" that consistent, affectionate parenting could mitigate CU traits, there was absolutely nothing in the article to support a conclusive "cure" or "therapy." They specifically used the word "hope" with good reason.


    There is a lot of contention within the article itself and much of medical science and academia. So far, it appears the professional communities at large have no consensus on diagnosis or therapy. They don't agree on terminology (sociopath/psychopath), they don't agree on assessing a correct diagnosis (because there are a lot of overlapping symptoms of various conditions that they can't be sure deserve their own label), whether to label at all due to stigma and lack of conclusiveness, whether to treat, and to what degree of effectiveness treatment can provide if any.

    If anyone reads this article and feels that their position (whatever it is) has been vindicated, they didn't read the article thoroughly. I finished that article with a lot more questions than answers.

    @Within I have a question for you. In the article, the author says that there is no functional difference between the terms sociopath and psychopath, but I'm sure that I have read elsewhere that they are different. Being that you've written a dissertation on the topic, can you provide some clarity for the layperson?

    The scientific process takes forever and is prone to many errors, not the least of which is lack of control for appropriate variables. In the case of studying those with antisocial behavior, major variables that might likely be overlooked are case histories including parenting method, whether child was breastfed, and existence of loving, nurturing environment. Not to mention frequency and various forms of abuse.

    Ni doms don't usually need literature to state what we know is true. Without a doubt, I know that environment is what makes someone behave antisocially. And that behaviors CAN change, it just depends on the person and how motivated they are to change.

    /discussion

    :queenie:



    EDIT: And regarding type. More to do with ego and lack of its development, and imbalance between superego/id, than cognitive functions.
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  7. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    Ni doms don't usually need literature to state what we know is true. Without a doubt, I know that environment is what makes someone behave antisocially. And that behaviors CAN change, it just depends on the person and how motivated they are to change.

    /discussion

    :queenie:
    Are you serious?
    "The purpose of life is to be defeated by greater and greater things." - Rainer Maria Rilke

  8. #28
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iwakar View Post
    Are you serious?
    Uh, yeah. Why?
    Ni/Ti/Fe/Si
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    The more one loves God, the more it is that having nothing in the world means everything, and the less one loves God, the more it is that having everything in the world means nothing.

    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

    songofmary.wordpress.com


  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by iwakar View Post
    @Within I have a question for you. In the article, the author says that there is no functional difference between the terms sociopath and psychopath, but I'm sure that I have read elsewhere that they are different. Being that you've written a dissertation on the topic, can you provide some clarity for the layperson?
    In Sweden, you can't be diagnosed with either of psychopathy or sociopathy. Since there's no such diagnosis in ICD-10 and DSM-V. The diagnosis in use is Antisocial personality disorder. During my three stretches of internship I've come in contact with several people that have been diagnosed with APD. The ones that stand out in this crowd are two people in particular. Let's refer to them by A & B.

    A: I met him on a closed psychiatric ward during my first three weeks, when I was first thrown into the frey. The personnel which I worked with talked about him with almost whispering voices. Like he was some kind of a ghost that would come and tear your lungs out through your ass or something. Anyway I was relieved when I met him. Having him materialize before me. My handler carried out a conversation with him about his current situation and his future. I learned later that he was committed because of a pathological intoxication caused by frequent use of pot. Beyond that he had an inclination to get extremely violent during his use of drugs.

    An example of this would be when he chased his sister with a kitchen knife screaming that he was going to cut off her tits.

    B: If we skip forward 1,5 years, we come to patient B. I met him briefly when he wandered into the wrong department of the mental health facility that I was working on. It was the self harm ward and he came from the across the hall where they treat depression and anxiety. He wandered, with that smug way of walking. Radiating arrogance. I confronted him by asking what he was doing on this side of the fence. He replied politely by saying that he was inspecting the furniture on this side. After which he waited, knowing that I insinuated for him to scurry on back to his side. Eventually he walked away.

    I learned later that patient B was a high ranking military officer that was committed due to some unknown reason. Apart from being diagnosed with APD he had another personality disorder (narcissism).

    Side note; fuck Swedish ambiguity.

    I use these examples as a frame in this particular situation.

    Subject A, is the perfect definition of a sociopath. Majorly screwed over in life, immigrates from a war zone as a child. But his war does not end there. Asshole father, turns to the only life he can possibly immerse into his person. Probably underlying PTSD in combination with under average IQ, add drug use to that mix and we have a less than healthy individual. Violence is a way to gain respect right?

    Now subject B on the other hand is a different matter. When dealing with APD there's one golden rule to keep one/or two eyes on the lookout for. J.M. Macdonald described it first in the 1963 issue of the American Journal of Psychiatry. He referred to it as the dark triad. Subject B was very charming and confident. Through another pair of glasses he scored a hat trick in the dark triad.

    While describing a way to separate psychopathy and sociopathy like this I realize that it's in all actuality rather futile. In these examples I referred to the sociopath as the moron, and the psychopath as the suave one.

    In order to study cases like this, generalization is to a certain degree is necessary. Still, one must keep in mind that it's impossible to group all serial killers into one of the categories. The same goes for the C.E.O's, even though I myself personally harbour the belief that most of the intelligent sociopaths end up on high powered positions, while doing very little work. Due to they being suave.

    Another observation that I've, which encompass both the idiots and the geniuses. it's that both of them strive. They strive against a most elusive target. I think that people like this are hollow shells. That's what they can't stand, because they are perfect.

    If that wasn't clear enough, I was saying that they are all the same. The cause however is not.

  10. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Within View Post
    While describing a way to separate psychopathy and sociopathy like this I realize that it's in all actuality rather futile. In these examples I referred to the sociopath as the moron, and the psychopath as the suave one.

    In order to study cases like this, generalization is to a certain degree is necessary. Still, one must keep in mind that it's impossible to group all serial killers into one of the categories. The same goes for the C.E.O's, even though I myself personally harbour the belief that most of the intelligent sociopaths end up on high powered positions, while doing very little work. Due to they being suave.

    Another observation that I've, which encompass both the idiots and the geniuses. it's that both of them strive. They strive against a most elusive target. I think that people like this are hollow shells. That's what they can't stand, because they are perfect.

    If that wasn't clear enough, I was saying that they are all the same. The cause however is not.
    Thanks for the RL examples. The differences are definitely subtle for the layperson, but I can understand the reason for a medical differentiation. I'm guessing this would mean that treatment would also be different too, based on the label?
    "The purpose of life is to be defeated by greater and greater things." - Rainer Maria Rilke

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