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  1. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by nebbykoo View Post
    I'm glad he got off the fence about it. The US shouldn't talk about universal human rights and not extend them to everyone. No one loses anything from this, whatever the Chicken Littles tell you...
    Its not chicken littles, its about subverting heteronormativity, maybe it'll work and maybe it wont but the fact no one even sees that in play is concerning enough all by itself. Serious bit of myopia on the part of those who give themselves the most credit for being open minded, critical and questioning or doubting everything. Then again, its always the way.

  2. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphosis View Post
    I would agree with this, actually. There's really no reason why the state should have anything to do with romantic/relationship issues, or tax/benefit incentives that deal with them.
    I do think that's a demonstrably reasonable observation, although why fight for or about "marriage" when civil partnerships confer the same rights? There's cleary something greater at play here than simply a rebalancing of civil legal rights, as far as I can tell the one main upshot of legal reframing of homosexual relationships in the UK has been to permit more marital causes legal proceedings, acrimonious settlements and dividing up of private fortunes following relationship breakdowns and seperations.

    There's even economic underpinnings to that political trend, the legal "marriage" and then seperation and divorce following it leads to the break up of fortunes, usually larger ones than hetero-dynasties or legacies as there are no children involved for inheritance or expenses purposes, not only are those fortunes broken up but post seperation blues accounts for some measure of binge spending and this provides some circulation of money without any requirement for tax and spending by the state to achieve the same thing. Its perfectly congruent with niche wealth circulating models of economy which free market conservatives would like to approximate rather than some sort of state stimulated mass consumer economy.

    Although shit like that will really screw with your black and white goodies and baddies logic so...

  3. #83
    morose bourgeoisie
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Its not chicken littles, its about subverting heteronormativity, maybe it'll work and maybe it wont but the fact no one even sees that in play is concerning enough all by itself. Serious bit of myopia on the part of those who give themselves the most credit for being open minded, critical and questioning or doubting everything. Then again, its always the way.
    The fact is that if the state doesn't recognize one's union, then one has no right to make decisions for one’s partner during times of crisis or infirmity. To deny this basic right seems irrational and unnecessarily to me, just to maintain some vague sense of the ‘sanctity of marriage’ or ‘heteronormality’, whatever that is.
    I understand that it offends people’s religious sensibilities, but in a secular country that claims, as one of its missions, to protect the rights of individuals, doesn’t it seem contradictory to use the idea of ‘sanctity’ of anything as evidence against extending rights that in themselves, do no harm to anyone?
    I know a few lesbian couples who are raising kids. The kids seem well adjusted and loved. They are showered with constant concern and affection. I also know lots of people who were not treated with concern by their biological parents. Some were outright abused or neglected. Almost all have suffered some troubles later in life from this. (Personally, I fall closer to that end of the spectrum than that represented by the same-sex couples I mentioned.) Should we not use this information, based on real experience in the real world, as proof of concept, or should we simply maintain the old ways based on some abstract notion? I find it odd that many of those who argue against do so from this rational, abstract perspective. That seems like idealism turned on its head.

  4. #84
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Its not chicken littles, its about subverting heteronormativity, maybe it'll work and maybe it wont but the fact no one even sees that in play is concerning enough all by itself. Serious bit of myopia on the part of those who give themselves the most credit for being open minded, critical and questioning or doubting everything. Then again, its always the way.

    Lots of people "see that in play," thank you very much. And in fact the reason that the support for same-sex marriage has grown so much is exactly because people have "seen it in play." It's exactly the OPPOSITE of what you are insisting.

    Thirty or forty years ago, the only stories people heard about gay people was "promiscuous sex in bathhouses and wild orgies" and whatever other cultural myths dominated, since no one really knew anyone who was gay; it was easier to believe the worst.

    Nowadays many people know someone who is gay. They know gay couples raising children, building families, working professionally. They realize through observation that there really seems to be no difference between them and the het families.

    That is why public opinion has shifted so drastically, and as the Millenials and Boomers die off, the Gen Y's and younger who have gay friends or friends who were raised by gay parents without any more harm than those raised by het parents will continue to support same-sex marriage. They are speaking from experience. THeir grandparents kept preaching about the bogeyman under the bed, but when they finally had the courage to pull the bed back and look under it, they just saw Mason and Cindy and Julie and Stan and all their other friends who are perfectly fine and no different than anyone else. They saw there is nothing to fear.

    I remember times when we've talked about gay marriage privately, WAAAY back before we stopped being on friendly terms with each other, and you insisted to me that you really had nothing against same-sex marriage, that you just didn't like the extremists but otherwise it didn't really matter to you much either way. What happened to you? I would definitely not refer to you as neutral, or indifferent, or willing to live and let live.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

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  5. #85
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    I want to know 1) How Obama supporting gay rights is incorrect, 2) How him supporting them effects his judgement globally, and 3) Why it even matters that he supported them if he ends up keeping this place (the U.S.) from failing, or even keeping it afloat. More time is more time, support is support. This... Is outlandish.

    I want an extrapolation of what his supporting LGBT rights has on our Country as a whole? How can being open-minded in this instance make us look weak? If he allows everyone rights he's a pushover! Laughable. Other countries don't approve? War! Or the breaking of international trade agreements? His morals aren't in order? Oh, giving freedom to these people is immoral! WE NEED ORDER!

    All of this is unnecessary strife, covering and ENTERTAINING us from the truth. That we don't want to accept that somewhere along the line we failed, we distorted our views, but we aren't done rejecting it because looking wrong means we look weak and no one appreciates weakness.

    Part of being right is accepting you've failed. Stop saving. Destroy, remove and rebuild.

    Hm. Suppose I do have passion.

  6. #86
    Whisky Old & Women Young Speed Gavroche's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Life was easier when guys just clubbed their dating prospects over the head and dragged 'em around by the hair...
    I guess you compare that with progress.

    It's wrong.

    Because progress happened without the state, just like marriage, and from a practical nessecity.

    So the analogy fail.
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  7. #87
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    I guess you compare that with progress.
    It's wrong.
    Because progress happened without the state, just like marriage, and from a practical nessecity.
    So the analogy fail.
    Lighten up.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #88
    Senior Member Elisius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphosis View Post
    I would agree with this, actually. There's really no reason why the state should have anything to do with romantic/relationship issues, or tax/benefit incentives that deal with them.
    I completely agree. Tax incentives for married couples would be useful if we had a population deficit. But as it is...
    It essentially officiates love. That never works out well.

    *Edit* Ach... Anyone know how to do a quote within a quote?
    A mind that is stretched by a new experience can never go back to its old dimensions. - Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr.

  9. #89
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elisius View Post
    I gotta hear this...
    Elaborate.
    I'm curious too. lol
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  10. #90
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elisius View Post
    *Edit* Ach... Anyone know how to do a quote within a quote?
    You would do it....
    Like this
    and this
    and this
    and this
    and this
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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