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  1. #41
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    I am only thinking about what I reply here so I guess I will jsut have to type that .... so that I get the ideas out of my head.


    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    MM, I'm not sure about what you mean exactly. In most cities there are still government owned apartments with purposefully lower rents. If they were to be sold and consequently if the rents were to become market-competitive, there would surely be protests.

    I mean it like this.


    1. People organize a protest and rant about the goverment because it not building apartments and houses .... and gives them for free.

    2. Peasants/farmers block a major highway and requiest that the goverment sets the prices of their products artificially high. So that they can have the profit they need.


    This is happening in Itally as well ?


    Plus we also have that kinds of apartments but here you dont pay the rent as far as I know.




    Quote Originally Posted by Blank View Post
    Living in the United States, one lives a completely sheltered life due to the strength of our form of capitalism. We don't see the hundreds of thousands we oppress directly and indirectly to obtain cheaply produced goods. Our current form of capitalism, or corporatism as some would argue is completely focused on the short term so that the people running the wealthiest businesses can cash out and make enough money only for their friends and families to thrive. There is little regard for the social well-being of others and it's often encouraged to ignore the plight of other individuals since, loosely speaking: 1. It's always their fault for being in the position they are in. 2. Even if we wanted, it's not as though we could help every person in trouble. 3. Why should we give up our own possessions for someone who hasn't worked to obtain what we have?

    The way I see it, there really isn't much difference between capitalism and pseudo-communism. There are monopolies on oil, gas, electricty, water, oligopolies on pretty much everything else. With communism, there's a more concentrated mass of wealth and power in the upper echelon with little to no trickle of wealth downwards. With capitalism, it's much the same, only with greater class mobility that is slightly less determined by one's heredity.

    I guess it all boils down to this: the corruption in a capitalistic society is much more closeted than in a communist society, but it's still there all the same.


    And now we get to something that can be considered to be apsurd.


    As my country is weird (in my opinion) we didn't exactly manage to have the communism either. (communism as a westener would imagine it)


    The thing was that our communists were evaluated as "heretics" and have decided not to be loyal to the central commete in Moscow. If my knowledge of history is correct thing got even as for that the Stalin got some letters to STFU with his idiotisms and leave this country alone. A number of people actaully got killed because they had something to with Moscow.



    What means that out communism had almost nothing to do with Soviet communism.
    There were political repressions but economy was not too rigidly structured. For example it was possible to have small private business , organize a rock concert or go to the large brake u summer and travel around the country.

    But since the country was a communist country the western powers had their reserves about "our little experiment". So Croatia as a part of Yugoslav federation stayed as a sort of a bubble between east and wast. (geographically and politically)



    While today foreign corporations have choked most of the economy that has survived the war .... the problem is that this is a country where the annual budget is around 20-25 billion dollars and that is big goverment. If we cut the budget to be capitalistic then it wound be only a half of that. What means that the country as a whole is simply too small and too weak to survive the modern globalistic trends. Basically some corporation could just buy this country as a whole if they really wish to do that.



    And now the apsurd

    Our communism in alot of ways was closer to the traditional American capitalism than our *cough*capitalism*cough*. In this country it seems that there has been a flip in terminology due to the historical circumstances. So it is no wonder that the country is in serious ideological chaos ...... since nothing in practice is as it should be or how it is designed in theory.





    In what kind of a country free market capitalists are going on elections with socialists as a coalition between the two parties .... and unified political force !?
    (for 3 elections in a row)

  2. #42

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    To be honest I think the only thing that makes capitalism liveable are the mitigating factors.

    Pure capitalism is totally incongruent with human nature, it may permit some to live in accordance with their nature who have the resources to do so, although the majority of people can not and have to adapt. There's limits to anyones ability to adapt, as all the revolutionary crisis and upheavels of history demonstrate.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    To be honest I think the only thing that makes capitalism liveable are the mitigating factors.

    Pure capitalism is totally incongruent with human nature, it may permit some to live in accordance with their nature who have the resources to do so, although the majority of people can not and have to adapt. There's limits to anyones ability to adapt, as all the revolutionary crisis and upheavels of history demonstrate.


    You dont have to explain that to me. The empirical evidance I have seen in my life clearly suggest this as well.

    However people in this thread have taken the term capitalism too strictly. I am not refering only to "how the money flows" but also to social climate that is present in pretty much every country that considers itself western. (actually that is why I originally placed the thread in Relationships sub-forum)



    When this whole capitalism thing started 12 years ago I was in high school and I was almost certain that the capitalistic experiment will fail. This has nothing to do with ideology but the fact that this place simply is not good for implementation of such a system.



    1. As a whole this country is worth as a medium sized corporation.

    2. Mentality of people is socialistic, even our "libertarians" have strong socialistic tendencies.

    3. There is no one to run all those private companies. (only about 10 years ago we have started to educate first people to run private business) and that knowledge had to be imported since capitalism didn't have strong historical background in this part of the world.

    4. There is no ore mines or ore reserves , most of the oil , gas and coal have to be imported. (read: energy)

    5. There are serious problems with corruption. (which is centuries old and is actually a part of the native culture)

    6. Already we have 30% of people in retirement and it is expected that this will get up to the 50% before it starts to drop.

    7. The economy that has actually worked well was destroyed in the war.

    8. The questions of land ownership are not clear. Espcially since most of the records about ownership date from Austro-Hungarian empire. (which collapsed in WW1)

    9. Horrible education system: first - it is at least 20 years outdated , second - there is not even enough space of everybody (group of 35 people needs to work in a lab that is designed for only 4 people , or students have to sit on the floor since there is no enough chairs)

    10. Plus now we are in more debt than we are actually worth, with almost no possibility for any kind of economic growth. (because of stated factors)



    So let's be honest .... with who can this country economically compete ?

    What then makes the idea of modern capitalism in this society totally pointless at the moment.
    (purely form logical/strategic point of view)

  4. #44
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    I
    As my country is weird (in my opinion) we didn't exactly manage to have the communism either. (communism as a westener would imagine it)

    The thing was that our communists were evaluated as "heretics" and have decided not to be loyal to the central commete in Moscow. If my knowledge of history is correct thing got even as for that the Stalin got some letters to STFU with his idiotisms and leave this country alone. A number of people actaully got killed because they had something to with Moscow.

    What means that out communism had almost nothing to do with Soviet communism.
    There were political repressions but economy was not too rigidly structured. For example it was possible to have small private business , organize a rock concert or go to the large brake u summer and travel around the country.

    But since the country was a communist country the western powers had their reserves about "our little experiment". So Croatia as a part of Yugoslav federation stayed as a sort of a bubble between east and wast. (geographically and politically)

    While today foreign corporations have choked most of the economy that has survived the war .... the problem is that this is a country where the annual budget is around 20-25 billion dollars and that is big goverment. If we cut the budget to be capitalistic then it wound be only a half of that. What means that the country as a whole is simply too small and too weak to survive the modern globalistic trends. Basically some corporation could just buy this country as a whole if they really wish to do that.

    And now the apsurd

    Our communism in alot of ways was closer to the traditional American capitalism than our *cough*capitalism*cough*. In this country it seems that there has been a flip in terminology due to the historical circumstances. So it is no wonder that the country is in serious ideological chaos ...... since nothing in practice is as it should be or how it is designed in theory.

    In what kind of a country free market capitalists are going on elections with socialists as a coalition between the two parties .... and unified political force !?
    (for 3 elections in a row)
    I missed it, but what country is that?
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  5. #45
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    I missed it, but what country is that?
    As it says in the post - Croatia. (that is a name)

    Croatia is a tiny country in Eastern europe.

  6. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    2. Mentality of people is socialistic, even our "libertarians" have strong socialistic tendencies.
    Elaborate on this please.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    So let's be honest .... with who can this country economically compete ?
    Croatia "lost," but doesn't mean it's not part of capitalism. Even if its own economic policies have failed, it's still subjugated to the policies off foreign countries--exchange rates provide a good example for what I'm talking about.
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  8. #48
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    Much like democracy, Capitalism is the worst economic model... except for all the rest.

    It's the best thing going, and when regulated properly, can lift the entire world.

    Even as it stands now, capitalism has had a huge benefit to the third world.

    India, Brazil, China... without capitalism every one of these would be the 3rd world backwards buttholes they used to be.

    As globalization increases, and more jobs are outsourced to 2nd and 3rd world nations with lower labor costs, capitalism will continue to lift 3rd world nations out of their relative backwardsness.

  9. #49
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Much like democracy, Capitalism is the worst economic model... except for all the rest.

    It's the best thing going, and when regulated properly, can lift the entire world.


    I know.


    Actually I have started this thread exactly because I miss this element of controling your own life. That seems to be strongly present in this organized capitalism your are mentioning ...... or even in a societly that has plenty of capitalistic traits. (and that is why the thread was started in relationships section instead of here)


    No matter what I simply cant be a pawn I was rised be. So me and society went in two separate ways.

  10. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Much like democracy, Capitalism is the worst economic model... except for all the rest.

    It's the best thing going, and when regulated properly, can lift the entire world.

    Even as it stands now, capitalism has had a huge benefit to the third world.

    India, Brazil, China... without capitalism every one of these would be the 3rd world backwards buttholes they used to be.

    As globalization increases, and more jobs are outsourced to 2nd and 3rd world nations with lower labor costs, capitalism will continue to lift 3rd world nations out of their relative backwardsness.
    I'll call bullshit on that and I'll tell you why.

    In Ireland they capitalised TWICE on the exporting of jobs from wealthy economies and did all they could with special tax arrangements to entice investors and TWICE the country suffered when conditions changes on those same investors home fronts and they pulled out of the country or at least reduced their investment stakes.

    It created a situation of total dependency too, so when massively unpopular decisions where made which were nto strictly economic but geo-political, such as the US take over of an airstripe in Dublin there wasnt anything the politicians could have done other than accept it, its unlikely they would have been willing to alienate their friends in foreign governments, all being a single class or status group, but if they had been willing to bend to domestic opinion the US made it clear they could change domestic economic policy in such a way that investment would dry up.

    There's good books on this topic which demonstrate how much it is bullshit that capitalism has been uplifting and developing the world for the better, like Confessions of An Economic Hitman, the guy in that book doesnt even suggest any alternative or have any ideological axe to grind, he just had a crisis of conscience about what he was doing and what it was doing to the people in the countries in which he paid "diplomatic visits".

    Most of the developments in those countries have been as a consequence of a number of modernisations in technics and culture, particularly peace and stability, Lord of War is a excellent film illustrating about how if you want to prosper do not go to war with yourself, most of those nations took some times to reach that point before development took off.

    There is an extent to which China's great leaps forward in technology and prosperity have been to do with playing the long game with its perceived or self-perceived rivals, they have been working stakes in the middle east and third world, they have been engaging in industrial espionage, they have ripped off technologies which companies have looked to them to produce en mass more cheaply than the western factories. All of that is on record opinion expressed by fortune five hundred companies and US intelligence before you imagine its commie propaganda, the Chinese have a new fighter which looks remarkably similar to one the US was a long time in developing and US commentators have suggested that esponiage is the only way they could have it.

    The problem with countries like China "playing the west at its own game" within its the "west's rules" is that once they have truly beaten the west at its own game it will introduce some "game changers" or the west will do it itself, the Bush administration expressed wishes to develop the existing eminent domain powers of the state to appropriate private land or resources for private businesses because it wanted the same sort of economic planning powers that the Chinese had.

    I'm by the day more convinced that capitalism is a misnomer for any of the worlds economies and merely an ideology used now and again to suit the ascendent or predominant special interests.

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