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  1. #11
    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
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    It's great. For the most part, entrepreneurs are more efficient and innovative because they are forced to be, in order to survive. But States don't have to worry much about it. Their survival is pretty much secured...and that's when bureaucracy and corruption arise. But we still need a State for a lot of things.
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  2. #12
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    Capitalism is good, because it fosters independence and competition. Corporatism, what we have too much of in the U.S. specifically, is very bad. Corporatism leads to propaganda (like major corps drive out smaller businesses which may actually have better products, and you're inundated with commercials and billboards trumpeting the virtues of a particular name brand) and actually squashes the independence and competition of true capitalism.

    It's pretty outrageous, because the idea behind capitalism is to be free and fair, but when corporatism takes over, it's like...a form of fascist communism that is dominated by a few major businesses rather than the government.

  3. #13
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Capitalism is good, because it fosters independence and competition. Corporatism, what we have too much of in the U.S. specifically, is very bad. Corporatism leads to propaganda (like major corps drive out smaller businesses which may actually have better products, and you're inundated with commercials and billboards trumpeting the virtues of a particular name brand) and actually squashes the independence and competition of true capitalism.

    It's pretty outrageous, because the idea behind capitalism is to be free and fair, but when corporatism takes over, it's like...a form of fascist communism that is dominated by a few major businesses rather than the government.
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  4. #14
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I dont believe that state control of assets makes a country uncapitalist, basically the first principles of all economies are the same and those first principles are capitalist.

    All economies are mixed, with state and private ownership, some with more and some with less and some in which the state ownership is unacknowledged and free market celebrated as synomynous with the economy.

    And every economy has class struggles, although most countries pretend it only exists were workers or industrial organising or strikes take place, the market is unable to moderate, mitigate or balance these struggles in such a way that everyone benefits but the myths continue that markets can and will.



    I am not an expert on social orders/systems so I will agree . However this is still pretty far from what I would call capitalism. (especially USA version of capitalism)


    The bottom principles are the same but the whole social climate , personal goals ..... totally different vibe. Actually I have opened this thread exactly because I never felt that vibe.


    Practical example

    You open a business , somebody decides to buy your goods/services. But the deal is that the person will pay in instalments. However in the end the person does not pay anything for some reason. Now in a capitalism you can go to the court and ask them to solve the problem for you. (that is what I have heard)


    But here it usually takes about 2-5 years to extract your money via justice system (the money that belongs to you) .
    In extreme cases this can even grow up to 10 years or more.


    Do you honestly think that real capitalism would allow such a practice ?

  5. #15
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    This.

    Capitalism produces winners and losers; it feels pretty good to be a winner, and pretty terrible to be a loser.

    Does that mean that you would never take a middle path where is no winners and losers ? Since there is no compretition .

  6. #16
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Capitalism is good, because it fosters independence and competition. Corporatism, what we have too much of in the U.S. specifically, is very bad. Corporatism leads to propaganda (like major corps drive out smaller businesses which may actually have better products, and you're inundated with commercials and billboards trumpeting the virtues of a particular name brand) and actually squashes the independence and competition of true capitalism.

    It's pretty outrageous, because the idea behind capitalism is to be free and fair, but when corporatism takes over, it's like...a form of fascist communism that is dominated by a few major businesses rather than the government.

    But how do you make friends since you must also compete with them ? (I am sorry if this sonds as a stupid question)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    But how do you make friends since you must also compete with them ? (I am sorry if this sonds as a stupid question)
    No this is a very good question. I think there is a lot of suspisciousness and cut-throat behavior in a capitalist culture. HOWEVER, even in a capitalist culture there are people who have a very particular separate set morality that has nothing to do with capitalism. For example, I'm from the South, a pretty hardcore "honor culture" where people have a very set Fe morality separate from capitalism, so people tend to - almost by rote instinct - help other people. HOWEVER, it's still hard in schools, because children are encouraged to compete with one another through academics, sports, beauty pageants, etc. This fosters narcissism versus cooperation. Our schools - if you aren't educated outside of public school by family or other institutions - tend to prepare people to be obedient capitalist workers rather than innovative entrepreneurs, ironically. I'm very thankful I was forcefully educated at home by my grandparents (who were still like old-school America) and given opportunities outside of the public school system, so basically I was encouraged to be who I am, I think. I ironically thank my ISTJ grandfather for making me a person who isn't afraid to live outside of the system. I think that's because his foundation in life came in the 1920's and 30's, when people were encouraged to still be real capitalists rather than neo-conservative asswipes. My grandfather is one of those people who rose out of his original social class.

    So yeah - anyway - I do think there are groups of Americans who are too competitive with other people for their own good, but many Americans have a morality about family, friends, and community that has nothing to do with capitalism.

    I actually see a more disturbing number of people my age and younger who have no morality outside of capitalism. It creeps me the fuck out.

  8. #18
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    Does that mean that you would never take a middle path where is no winners and losers ? Since there is no compretition .
    I have yet to see a capitalist system where no one was more disadvantaged as a direct result of the capitalist system. In theory, there are ways in which that loss can be compensated for, but that hasn't worked so well in practice, historically.

    I also agree with Marm, to a degree, about competition in society. That competition is especially visible when you talk to wealthy conservatives, you start to see the mindset of "Wealthy people are wealthy because they earned it, and if you're poor, you obviously are either lazy or stupid." Which, in my opinion, is an irrational degree of faith in the power of capitalist competition to raise the most deserving to the positions that best suit them. The world is more complicated than that.
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  9. #19
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    No this is a very good question. I think there is a lot of suspisciousness and cut-throat behavior in a capitalist culture. HOWEVER, even in a capitalist culture there are people who have a very particular separate set morality that has nothing to do with capitalism. For example, I'm from the South, a pretty hardcore "honor culture" where people have a very set Fe morality separate from capitalism, so people tend to - almost by rote instinct - help other people. HOWEVER, it's still hard in schools, because children are encouraged to compete with one another through academics, sports, beauty pageants, etc. This fosters narcissism versus cooperation. Our schools - if you aren't educated outside of public school by family or other institutions - tend to prepare people to be obedient capitalist workers rather than innovative entrepreneurs, ironically. I'm very thankful I was forcefully educated at home by my grandparents (who were still like old-school America) and given opportunities outside of the public school system, so basically I was encouraged to be who I am, I think. I ironically thank my ISTJ grandfather for making me a person who isn't afraid to live outside of the system. I think that's because his foundation in life came in the 1920's and 30's, when people were encouraged to still be real capitalists rather than neo-conservative asswipes. My grandfather is one of those people who rose out of his original social class.

    So yeah - anyway - I do think there are groups of Americans who are too competitive with other people for their own good, but many Americans have a morality about family, friends, and community that has nothing to do with capitalism.

    I actually see a more disturbing number of people my age and younger who have no morality outside of capitalism. It creeps me the fuck out.

    So if I in school come to someone who is totally neutral to me, and ask them if I can transcribe or copy their math homework since we have identical homework what would likely happen ? Would this be considered weird ?



    The thing is that my current environment is not possible anymore. So we have only two options we can full embrace:


    1. The capitalism which has never had a strong foundation in this society (what is more likely)

    or

    2. Exterminate what little we have capitalistic and fully return back to Communism or some kind of dictarorship.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    So if I in school come to someone who is totally neutral to me, and ask them if I can transcribe or copy their math homework since we have identical homework what would likely happen ? Would this be considered weird ?
    This would be considered "cheating."



    The thing is that my current environment is not possible anymore. So we have only two options we can full embrace:


    1. The capitalism which has never had a strong foundation in this society (what is more likely)

    or

    2. Exterminate what little we have capitalistic and fully return back to Communism or some kind of dictarorship.
    Why can't you have something in between? Is it the nature of your culture to be extreme? The U.S. is a very extreme culture as well, as opposed to some Western European countries which seem much more balanced to me.

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