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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    Yes, and all theses things are bullshit.
    Yeah, because 19th century business practices were so great for the working masses. Fuck, who cares if people only make $2.00 and hour, lose body parts in machinery, work 12 hours a day nonstop and are fired for being black or having a vagina; corporations should just be able to do as they please, wouldn't want to tread on them cause that would just be awful.

    Yes, and I'am right, prove me wrong.
    Again, this isn't the 19th century; the government enforces authority on businesses for your benefit. Get with the times.

    Every coherent libertarians, many economists....
    Most of them don't know what the hell they're even talking about in addition to advocating absurd and useless economic policies.

    It was the case in France until a very short time. I'm glad it's not the case anymore.
    I'll repeat myself; links and empirical data. That means actual documented instances as well as reliable sources.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    If you agree that the State should not reimburse transgender surgery, I'm glad of it, you are not socialist on this point. However, if you want to forbid discrimination on transgender and force private companies to hire them, you are socialist on this point.
    I'm still not sure why you are labeling this as "socialism." I think your definition of socialism is highly distorted.

    The government doesn't give a crap about how you feel about minorities. It simply says that you can't discriminate against them except for something related to the actual job. If they can do the work and especially if they can do the work better than others, then you need to judge them on the basis of their work. You can't exclude them just because of their age or color or gender or appearance or religion if they can do the work. (And it's not like companies don't end up finding ways around this anyway, but...)

    A country that doesn't create a level playing field ends up hurting itself, and also ends up being ruled by the tyranny of those who arbitrarily hold power. Meanwhile, minorities eventually end up being persecuted.

    Beyond creating a level playing field, the government should back off, IMO. I don't like quota systems.

    In any case, I don't label this government action as "socialism" in the sense you seem to be labeling it as such. Transgender protection is being included as a subgroup under gender protection in the broad, already established umbrella of federal law.
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  3. #43
    Whisky Old & Women Young Speed Gavroche's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savage Idealist View Post
    Yeah, because 19th century business practices were so great for the working masses. Fuck, who cares if people only make $2.00 and hour, lose body parts in machinery, work 12 hours a day nonstop and are fired for being black or having a vagina; corporations should just be able to do as they please, wouldn't want to tread on them cause that would just be awful.
    Syndicates have the right to negociate better working conditions, and thanks for the prosperity allowed by capitalism, they get it. However, there's no legitimacy for violence. I've explained on some other posts that free-market worked bettr than dicrimination for the integration of black workers. Prove me wrong instead of allignate problem and claim that freedom is responsible for this.


    [quoteAgain, this isn't the 19th century; the government enforces authority on businesses for your benefit. Get with the times[/quote]

    It's not a benefit, it provokes inflation and unemployement and indebtedness, among some negatives consequences.


    Most of them don't know what the hell they're even talking about in addition to advocating absurd and useless economic policies.
    Prove it.


    I'll repeat myself; links and empirical data. That means actual documented instances as well as reliable sources.
    http://www.rue89.com/rue69/2010/02/2...ur-tous-139328


    By the way, the topic is not about socialism overall but about the interest of some specific socialist ends only. Stay on the thread and don't deviate.
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  4. #44
    Whisky Old & Women Young Speed Gavroche's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I'm still not sure why you are labeling this as "socialism." I think your definition of socialism is highly distorted.

    The government doesn't give a crap about how you feel about minorities.
    It doesn't give a crap but want to impose his opinion. Coherent.

    It simply says that you can't discriminate against them except for something related to the actual job. If they can do the work and especially if they can do the work better than others, then you need to judge them on the basis of their work. You can't exclude them just because of their age or color or gender or appearance or religion if they can do the work. (And it's not like companies don't end up finding ways around this anyway, but...)
    The State have no competence to judge is an employee do a good job or not. But the private owner of the compagny, who's directly involved in the field of prodduction and buisness is. Elsewhere, people are free to be transgender if they want but I'm not forced to like them.

    A country that doesn't create a level playing field ends up hurting itself, and also ends up being ruled by the tyranny of those who arbitrarily hold power.
    No, it's just letting people express their personal judgement and take their personal decisions.

    Meanwhile, minorities eventually end up being persecuted.
    Discrimination is not persecution, it's just expressing a personal preference.


    In any case, I don't label this government action as "socialism" in the sense you seem to be labeling it as such. Transgender protection is being included as a subgroup under gender protection in the broad, already established umbrella of federal law.
    You want to create coercive laws so that society follow your canons of social justice, that's socialism.

    Oh, and if someone sign up a contract which says that he must wear an uniform on the workplace, then he doest it. Normal.
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  5. #45
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    I never posted in this thread! The mods are out to get me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elaur View Post
    I never posted in this thread! The mods are out to get me.
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  7. #47
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    I doubt that all private insurance schemes cover cosmetic surgery or gender reassignment, I dont know why public insurance schemes should automatically include it either, its not discriminatory towards a minority, in fact including it would seem discriminatory towards the majority of subscribers/tax payers.

    Although to be honest I think there needs to be a lot more open appraisal of how scarce resources are allocated within public insurance funded health services, whether it is one in which the hospitals are directly owned by the government or one which operates a reimbursement scheme of bills annually.

    There are minorities and majorities when it comes to the allocation of resources through health spending, I think in the UK investigations uncovered health inequalities on the basis of sex and particular illnesses, such as some forms of cancer versus other forms of cancer. There are certain deliberate health inequalities or discrimination within the system (discriminaton is not automatically wrong, everyone discriminates between a number of options when they make choices, there is some forms of discrimination which are unfair or irrational though) for instance more resources are allocated to surgery or treatment of sick children or the elderly than the adult population. Which means that particular age groups will wait longer for the same procedures.

    Although ideological entrenchment and retrenchment, either in support of a minority you identify with or are part of or simply the capitalist ideology which is the big herd poison at the moment, isnt any good in my opinion.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    Syndicates have the right to negociate better working conditions, and thanks for the prosperity allowed by capitalism, they get it. However, there's no legitimacy for violence. I've explained on some other posts that free-market worked bettr than dicrimination for the integration of black workers. Prove me wrong instead of allignate problem and claim that freedom is responsible for this.
    Bull shit; under a complete free market where competition between other businesses is high and profits are considered of the upmost importance, a company will take actions to suit their own needs or desires regardless of steping on the little man. Before the turn of the 20th century there was little in the way of business regulation on how they ran their workplace; add in the company margin of making profits, and the result was overworked people being taken advantage of like tools. That's why over the years rules have been added in for company's to treat their workers like actual human beings (except for Walmart, they're just evil).

    This of course extends to people of race, gender, age, etc. There used to be a time where such people would be paid less than a young white man, as well as suffer harrasment and unfair termination. But those problem where never cured by the free market, rather by rules and regulations put in place; and enforcement of policies that garuntees definite worker equality. Even if your free market idea towards tolerance could theoretically work, there's still less of a chance it would when compared to simple government intervention. And of course, the same principle should also apply to transexuals.

    It's not a benefit, it provokes inflation and unemployement and indebtedness, among some negatives consequences.
    Would you enjoy working somewhere for piss and shit wages, grueling hours of hard labor, and little to no job security?

    In addition, you're going to have to prove to me that enforcing basic human right in the workplace somehow leaded to "inflation and unemployement and indebtedness"; and if such negative things do result as a consequence, why shouldn't we just accept them as a price for bacis work place rights?

    Prove it.
    To be honest, that was more of a generalized value judgement, of which I have no tangible means of defending. I'll give you that one.

    Could you link my something that isn't entirely in french?

    By the way, the topic is not about socialism overall but about the interest of some specific socialist ends only. Stay on the thread and don't deviate.
    And at no point did I advocate socialsim, not sure where you're getting that from.

    Unless of course you somehow think anything 'government regulated' is inherently socialist in nature. If that's the case, then: *facepalm*
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  9. #49
    Whisky Old & Women Young Speed Gavroche's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I doubt that all private insurance schemes cover cosmetic surgery or gender reassignment, I dont know why public insurance schemes should automatically include it either, its not discriminatory towards a minority, in fact including it would seem discriminatory towards the majority of subscribers/tax payers.

    Although to be honest I think there needs to be a lot more open appraisal of how scarce resources are allocated within public insurance funded health services, whether it is one in which the hospitals are directly owned by the government or one which operates a reimbursement scheme of bills annually.

    There are minorities and majorities when it comes to the allocation of resources through health spending, I think in the UK investigations uncovered health inequalities on the basis of sex and particular illnesses, such as some forms of cancer versus other forms of cancer. There are certain deliberate health inequalities or discrimination within the system (discriminaton is not automatically wrong, everyone discriminates between a number of options when they make choices, there is some forms of discrimination which are unfair or irrational though) for instance more resources are allocated to surgery or treatment of sick children or the elderly than the adult population. Which means that particular age groups will wait longer for the same procedures.

    Although ideological entrenchment and retrenchment, either in support of a minority you identify with or are part of or simply the capitalist ideology which is the big herd poison at the moment, isnt any good in my opinion.

    I think that if a public medical insurace reimburse transgender surgery, it waste the money of the citizens who pay charges, and if a private mediacal insurance do it, it waste the money of the others customers, in both cases we found peoples with more serious problems and in both cases, they are spoliated.

    I think a public medical insurance can reimburse it if there is a volontarist policy which decide that it's better to allocate ressources in this way. If it's a private medical insurance, it would be a very special one, who try to get an advantage on concurence offering this very special service, and where the customers -maybe because they are very rich and have money to waste- accept to pay contributions to that insurance.

    I can accept the second case, I can't accept the first one.

    Free-market and free-concurence are more efficient than statist laws to decide if a member of a minority is competent or not. So we don't need laws, we just need freedom.

    Oh, and SI: welcome back to my ignore list. You proved one more time that you are just a leftist unable to do other things than alignate common places and stupidity, I will not bother with you.
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  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    Free-market and free-concurence are more efficient than statist laws to decide if a member of a minority is competent or not. So we don't need laws, we just need freedom.
    Yeah, none of that is true and I'm pretty sure you dont understand a lot of the words you're using there.

    I decided not to respond to the stuff about my ignore list, its pretty embarrassing the way you cant control yourself and just spew all tnat out there. Makes your personal issues obvious to the entire forum even if you dont see them yourself.

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