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  1. #31
    Whisky Old & Women Young Speed Gavroche's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    The only thing I can think of is that I mentioned off-hand that there have been various shifts in government stances as of late, including the IRS allowing approved surgery to be written off as a tax deduction on one's annual Federal income tax... although you still have to break the 7.5% salary minimum before ANY costs can be applied as tax writeoffs, and I think next year that number is bouncing up to 10%. (Potentially you could dump a lot of money into your FSA -- flexible spending account, before-taxes money taken from your paycheck to pay for approvaed medical expenses, and thus avoid the 7.5% penalty.)

    But really, I don't know what all the hubbabaloo is about either. Rich corporate white guys get their Viagra covered by health insurance, for goodness' sake, and this is actually far more serious than that, yet the feds don't cover it in their health insurance programs yet. (An increasing number of Fortune 500 companies do, however.)
    I think we should do tax deduction for everybody, not only the transgender. They don't deserve any privilege.

    However, Red Herring seem to find legitimate that the State pay for them.

    Thoses who want to buy viagra can possbly have it reimbursed by their private insurance, but that's all.

    In France, transgenderism has been taken away from the list of psychological disease. And at the same time, stopped to reimburse sugrical operations. That's the good choice.

    Of course, some peoples protested.
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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post

    Right now there's only one true national level "lobby" and it consists of a handful of people trying to make sure their expenses are covered annually so they can stay in Washington DC. Most of it is small groups across the US dealing with their local and state laws.
    Ah? There's not a national and massive scientific consensus on that issue anymore? As you said in the other thread?

    They still big enough to give shit, though, especially when the lax support them.

    The gay lobby is bigger, i think, as you would expect. There's a reason GLAAD (which I don't really consider a trans-rights group, even if they're lumped in) handled the Miss Universe thing, I guess. There aren't enough resources for trans lobbies to spend on that when they're trying to do things for the average person like make it easier to get and keep housing and jobs; preserve/enable marriage rights; legal gender changes and state IDs.
    I guess I should cry for this;
    EsTP 6w7 Sx/Sp

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    "Stereotypes about personality and gender turn out to be fairly accurate: ... On the binary Myers-Briggs measure, the thinking-feeling breakdown is about 30/70 for women versus 60/40 for men." ~ Bryan Caplan

  3. #33
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    If a guy have psychologicals problem and believe he is a woman, that's his problem, and there's no reason to tax people in order to pay him surgery.

    If he wants some surgical operation, he has to work hard to pay it. That would bring more sense to his life, and maybe that active lifestyle could allow him to put some distance with his problems of identity, his neurotism and his egotic hysteria, and then solve his problem even better than surgery or psychterapy.

    Should we also pay tax to allow a guy who believe he is a monkey to to pay a surgical operation which could make him look like a monkey? Tssk, it's the same thing.
    Yeah. Because there's a viable physiological pathway for a guy wanting to be a monkey, or a horse, or a rocket ship, or some other ridiculous analogy that you might make so that you turn this into a discussion of your anti-socialism. (Start your own socialism thread if you want this.) Meanwhile, we have documented cases of various forms of intersexed and hermaphroditism over centuries, and far more research in the last 50 years. We know of various mechanisms (such as hormone imbalances in the mother during certain periods of fetus gestation) that can have an impact on sexual preference in mammals. We know animals that switch sex based on environmental conditions. There are mechanisms that are still being explored; i.e., there's an actual case for this.

    There is no case I know of for a guy to think he's a monkey. That's why your analogies come across as irrelevant and distorted.

    So far I see no indication you have actually researched this as a psychological/medical condition, examined the research that has been done over the last 30-40 years to discern trends, etc. Any joe schmoe can sit on a computer and express his feelings about the topic, but you apparently don't care enough to educate yourself to have a real opinion on it. Why should people waste their time arguing intelligently with someone who doesn't care enough about the topic to "ante up" with some actual understanding of the issues and what is being discussed ahead of time?

    NOW.... As far as surgery goes? Very few people get health insurance in the United States that covers their surgery. Most people do actually have to pay "out of pocket" to get it. So I'm not sure what your gripe is here. Like I said elsewhere, the tax deduction is consistent with coverage for "non-cosmetic, elective" issues since there are medical coded conditions associated with it, not just "I hate my nose, oh god"; and doesn't even amount to close to what has to be paid to cover it.

    At that point, you're more onto a situation where someone who needs a particular medical service to improve quality of life; but the cost is too expensive to afford. At that point, insurance does kick in for some things and make sense. You still need a licensed qualified physician to make that call.

    I wouldn't say transvestites and transsexuals have much in common from a motivation angle or in terms of their medical needs, but hey, at least you're not completely walled away.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft
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  4. #34
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    Good news to hear; this is a setp towards further progress in the U.S.

    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    If someone doesn't want to hire a transgender, nothing force him to do it.

    Theses laws are nothing more than coercion.
    Even if one were to consider the enforcement of certain regulations within a private business to be coercion, why should that be of any major concern? Private businesses aren't entitled to complete and utter freedom to act as they please; the government already enforced rules that the company must abide by: minimum wages, safety guidelines, anti-discrimination policies to protect gender and race, mandatory breaks, child labor laws, etc. And of course it's only rational to include transsexuals to that list in order to protect them as well. But by your method of logic, all these practices would amount to government coercion, and therefore unjustified. Granted though, I would wish you luck in finding anyone who in their right mind would advocate the repealing of such standard workplace policies.

    And of course, the State must not reimburse the surgical operations that trangender take. It's spoliation of people who didn't choose to be transgender, they have not be force to finance the trangender's whim paying tax to reimburse sugery or hiring them and paying them a salary either.
    What evidence do you have that proves that transsexuals acquire their biolgical transformation on the tax payers dime? Provide links and empirical data.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    In France, transgenderism has been taken away from the list of psychological disease. And at the same time, stopped to reimburse sugrical operations. That's the good choice.

    Of course, some peoples protested.
    It's actually a big point of concention in the trans community, if you care -- the argument of "de-stigmatization" of the syndrome by having it removed from the DSM, vs the ability to have some of the costs covered by medical insurance.

    It's not like all transpeople agree. There are heated proponents for each side.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft
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  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    Ah? There's not a national and massive scientific consensus on that issue anymore? As you said in the other thread?
    What are you talking about?

    The "lobbyists" are not the "medical practitioners." They're different groups.

    Medical practitioners do not make the law.
    Hence, you get lobbyists who try to sway lawmakers to vote in the way they think is best to vote.

    The medical community does not control the law. In this case, yes, the largest associations for medical doctors and psychiatrists do propose medical treatment as viable and helpful, under the care of the appropriate doctor. But getting lawmakers to vote a certain way is another matter.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #37
    Whisky Old & Women Young Speed Gavroche's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Yeah. Because there's a viable physiological pathway for a guy wanting to be a monkey, or a horse, or a rocket ship, or some other ridiculous analogy that you might make so that you turn this into a discussion of your anti-socialism. (Start your own socialism thread if you want this.)
    I will simply critc the attempts to promote socialism in this single thread, that will be enough to start.

    Meanwhile, we have documented cases of various forms of intersexed and hermaphroditism over centuries, and far more research in the last 50 years. We know of various mechanisms (such as hormone imbalances in the mother during certain periods of fetus gestation) that can have an impact on sexual preference in mammals. We know animals that switch sex based on environmental conditions. There are mechanisms that are still being explored; i.e., there's an actual case for this.

    There is no case I know of for a guy to think he's a monkey. That's why your analogies come across as irrelevant and distorted.
    The human being's potential for imagination and madness endless in his manifestations and variations.

    We would probably find that sort of case, if we search a little bit. That's just a matter of time.

    There's also peoples who think they are divinity, i guess we should also take that seriously.

    So far I see no indication you have actually researched this as a psychological/medical condition, examined the research that has been done over the last 30-40 years to discern trends, etc. Any joe schmoe can sit on a computer and express his feelings about the topic, but you apparently don't care enough to educate yourself to have a real opinion on it. Why should people waste their time arguing intelligently with someone who doesn't care enough about the topic to "ante up" with some actual understanding of the issues and what is being discussed ahead of time?
    I'm more informed on this that you think I'am, and nothing of what you wrote learned me anything. The true thing is that transgender's stuff are not my buisness and that socialist means are not justified y transgenders ends.
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    "I don't believe in guilt, I only believe in living on impulses"

    "Stereotypes about personality and gender turn out to be fairly accurate: ... On the binary Myers-Briggs measure, the thinking-feeling breakdown is about 30/70 for women versus 60/40 for men." ~ Bryan Caplan

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    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    I will simply critc the attempts to promote socialism in this single thread, that will be enough to start.
    Yeah. Thanks for crapping all over this thread with your derail, instead of caring enough about your topic to create your own thread about it.

    The human being's potential is without limit in his manifestations and variations.
    Fluff.

    We would probably find that sort of case, if we search a little bit. That's just a matter of time.
    Go for it. I'd appreciate a little elbow-grease from your end of things, I've been doing all the heavy lifting.

    There's also peoples who think they are divinity, i guess we should also take that seriously.
    Again, where's the case study on that and the viable medical angle/precedent?
    Fluff again.

    I'm more informed on this that you think I'am, and nothing of what you wrote learned me anything.
    Yeah. For me, I'm a rocket scientist, but I don't have to prove of that by actually using that knowledge in an argument. It's enough for me just to tell you that I'm reaaaaal smart and stuff. *eyeroll*

    The true thing is that transgender's stuff are not my buisness and that socialist means are not justified y transgenders ends.
    Fine. It's none of your business. So go talk about socialism, with the focus on this thread -- which was why the federal court system decided that, according to established law, gender should have no bearing on someone's employment.

    it's not even a new ruling. It's just an application of an existing statute.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  9. #39
    Whisky Old & Women Young Speed Gavroche's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savage Idealist View Post
    Good news to hear; this is a setp towards further progress in the U.S.



    Even if one were to consider the enforcement of certain regulations within a private business to be coercion, why should that be of any major concern? Private businesses aren't entitled to complete and utter freedom to act as they please
    the government already enforced rules that the company must abide by: minimum wages, safety guidelines, anti-discrimination policies to protect gender and race, mandatory breaks, child labor laws, etc.

    Yes, and all theses things are bullshit.


    And of course it's only rational to include transsexuals to that list in order to protect them as well. But by your method of logic, all these practices would amount to government coercion, and therefore unjustified.
    Yes, and I'am right, prove me wrong.


    Granted though, I would wish you luck in finding anyone who in their right mind would advocate the repealing of such standard workplace policies.
    Every coherent libertarians, many economists....


    What evidence do you have that proves that transsexuals acquire their biolgical transformation on the tax payers dime? Provide links and empirical data.

    It was the case in France until a very short time. I'm glad it's not the case anymore.


    It's actually a big point of concention in the trans community, if you care -- the argument of "de-stigmatization" of the syndrome by having it removed from the DSM, vs the ability to have some of the costs covered by medical insurance.

    It's not like all transpeople agree. There are heated proponents for each side.
    Yes, and some sides are wrong.


    What are you talking about?

    The "lobbyists" are not the "medical practitioners." They're different groups.

    Medical practitioners do not make the law.
    Hence, you get lobbyists who try to sway lawmakers to vote in the way they think is best to vote.

    The medical community does not control the law. In this case, yes, the largest associations for medical doctors and psychiatrists do propose medical treatment as viable and helpful, under the care of the appropriate doctor. But getting lawmakers to vote a certain way is another matter.
    They all pursue the same end. So ultimately, it's the same thing.
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    "Stereotypes about personality and gender turn out to be fairly accurate: ... On the binary Myers-Briggs measure, the thinking-feeling breakdown is about 30/70 for women versus 60/40 for men." ~ Bryan Caplan

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post

    Fine. It's none of your business. So go talk about socialism, with the focus on this thread -- which was why the federal court system decided that, according to established law, gender should have no bearing on someone's employment.

    it's not even a new ruling. It's just an application of an existing statute.
    As long as you promote socialist means to serve transgender ends, we will be forced to talk about socialism. Not about socialism overall, ut about the good and bad points of theses socialists reforms in particulary.

    If you agree that the State should not reimburse transgender surgery, I'm glad of it, you are not socialist on this point.

    However, if you want to forbid discrimination on transgender and force private companies to hire them, you are socialist on this point.

    That's all.
    EsTP 6w7 Sx/Sp

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    "Stereotypes about personality and gender turn out to be fairly accurate: ... On the binary Myers-Briggs measure, the thinking-feeling breakdown is about 30/70 for women versus 60/40 for men." ~ Bryan Caplan

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