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  1. #101
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Well Speed. I wish I had your optimism with the world.. but I just don't. At least, not when it comes to the American population. We're not a morale breed, nor are we an accepting one. We want convenience, and things that benefit us immediately, and don't like change or being told we have to change the way we think for anyone or any reason.

    Ethical ways are the most efficient ones.. but Americans at least aren't really that way. We've pretty much set ourselves up where the government is so far involved in everything that they have to run everything.. and we have to run everything through them.
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  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    Indeed. Acrually, is called "trolling" everything which challenge the church of political correctness. In this regard, trolling is one of the best generator of truth in the Internet.
    More nonsense. Trolling is when you say things designed to piss people off, and at least one side gets entrenched and angry. Informed and honest debate stimulates thinking and occasionally changes minds. Assuming that argument (effective or otherwise) is the arbiter of truth anywhere is foolish in that it assumes there is a link between majority belief and reality.
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  3. #103
    Secret Sex Freak Hazashin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    Whait is written.
    Could you show me which posts or parts of posts in particular?

    The bureaucracy can't judge if the transgender is competent or not, but will decide that he is, and that the boss must hire him, that is forcing him to hire the transgender.
    I never said that the "bureaucracy" can judge if the transgender is competent or not. I'm saying that it must make sure that employers do not NOT hire on the basis of anything other than competence of work for the job.

    The bosses do NOT have to hire them. They just can't NOT hire on them purely on the basis of anything but competence of work. Not hiring someone because they are transgender is NOT not hiring them on their competency, but rather not hiring them because of subjective opinion.

    And if he prefers to hire someone else than the transgender, then it's his right. Discrimination is making a choice between several things.
    No, it's not a right. Just because discrimination is making a choice, doesn't make it a right. It's a choice that imposes upon the rights of others', so therefore it cannot be a right. People have the choice to murder someone, but it isn't their right.

    Actually, by forcing him to hire the transgender specifically, we forbid the non-transgenders to get the job.
    Like I said, you aren't forcing the boss to hire transgender, you are just saying he can't not hire him on the basis of anything other than work competency.

    It's a violation of property right, so it's spoliation.
    What property rights are being violated?

    Yes, that's why, for exemple, people make less children, and expect that the children of others will pay their retirement. It doesn't work.
    Exactly! Since there is no guarantee that other children will pay for retirement, that's why it needs to be insured that you get it.

    It's the same thing with discrimination of minorities. Since there is no guarantee that employers won't discriminate on the basis of anything other than competency, then we must make sure that they do not.

    As I said, the bureaucracy can't be objective, so it doesn't work.
    Technically, anything involved by the mind of sentient beings, such as humans, is subjective, but, why can't it be?

    Also, employers aren't always objective. If they discriminate someone because they are transgender, they are being subjective. What's the difference?

    People's rights are life, property, and freedom, which means the right to not do what you have consented to.

    If a transgender is not hired by the boss, he still alive, he has not beeen stolen and he is not forced to do anything, he still free.
    A boss does NOT have to consent to hire a minority, he just can't NOT hire them on the basis of anything other than competency of work, as I have said before.

    Also, you are violating the transgender's right to freedom in that he is being more restricted than others with his freedom to apply for jobs.

    However, if a transgender use to force of a bureaucracy to force a boss to hire him and pay him, he violates his freedom and his property right, basically doing an agression.
    Like I said before, you are not forcing the boss to hire a transgender. You are saying that he cannot discriminate against a transgender for anything other than his competence of his work ability.

    And no, you are not violating his freedom, because discrimination isn't a freedom of his because it imposes upon the freedom of others'.
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  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    I don't see why a boss would be forced to hire a black guy either. The compagnies which refuse to hire the blacks would be devoid of the competences of the competent black peoples, and they would have a hard time to face the competition with the compagnies which don't shy away to hire them.
    If the bigots have a sufficiently dominant position in society, they can discriminate unfairly indefinitely without any negative consequence to themselves. But their actions harm society by promoting dissatisfaction and disunity. That is why it is unenlightened to allow it.
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  5. #105
    Senior Member tinker683's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    If the bigots have a sufficiently dominant position in society, they can discriminate unfairly indefinitely without any negative consequence to themselves. But their actions harm society by promoting dissatisfaction and disunity. That is why it is unenlightened to allow it.
    THANK YOU! Someone able to articulate the point that's been rolling around in my head for a few days everytme I read this thread.
    "The man who is swimming against the stream knows the strength of it."
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  6. #106
    Whisky Old & Women Young Speed Gavroche's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    If the bigots have a sufficiently dominant position in society, they can discriminate unfairly indefinitely without any negative consequence to themselves. But their actions harm society by promoting dissatisfaction and disunity. That is why it is unenlightened to allow it.
    I've explaine rationally and provided practical and real examples to show that it's not how thing truly work in the real world. All you have on your side is an hypothetic scenario built in your imagination whis is invalidated by reality.

    Stop to say and think stupid things.
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  7. #107
    Whisky Old & Women Young Speed Gavroche's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazashin View Post
    Could you show me which posts or parts of posts in particular?

    I'm not a teacher here to learn you to read, if you have not learned it in primary school, I can't do anything for you.



    I never said that the "bureaucracy" can judge if the transgender is competent or not. I'm saying that it must make sure that employers do not NOT hire on the basis of anything other than competence of work for the job.
    As you've said, a bureaucrat have no competence to judge the competency of someone. So the system you defend is inneficient and unfair by nature. But laissez-faire capitalist and free concurence are efficients.

    because of subjective opinion.
    Everybody have to right to act according to their subjective opinion. That's called freedom.


    a choice that imposes upon the rights of others', so therefore it cannot be a right. People have the choice to murder someone, but it isn't their right.
    Your analogy is idiot. By refusing to associate with someone you don't impose anything to someone else. Or in this case you should say that a woman who refuse a forced marriage is imposing something to her imposed fiancé. While if you murder someone, you impose him death.


    What property rights are being violated?
    When you force someone to pay someone else, that's a violation of property rights.



    Exactly! Since there is no guarantee that other children will pay for retirement, that's why it needs to be insured that you get it.

    You did not understand.

    If peoples make less children, it's justly because the welfare system encourage irresponsability and parasitism. However, there's no legitimacy to see the retirement of people who did not have children payed the children of others. Their retirement is their own responsability.


    Technically, anything involved by the mind of sentient beings,
    That's why thare's not reason to forbid peoples to act based on their subjective impression, and violate their freedom imposing the subjectivity of a bureaucracy.

    Also, employers aren't always objective. If they discriminate someone because they are transgender, they are being subjective. What's the difference?
    See above.

    Also, you are violating the transgender's right to freedom in that he is being more restricted than others with his freedom to apply for jobs.

    No, the transgender is as much free as when he had no jobs, just like an imposed fiancé is as much free as when he had no fiancée.

    And no, you are not violating his freedom, because discrimination isn't a freedom of his because it imposes upon the freedom of others'.
    No. See above.
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  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    I've explaine rationally and provided practical and real examples to show that it's not how thing truly work in the real world. All you have on your side is an hypothetic scenario built in your imagination whis is invalidated by reality.

    Stop to say and think stupid things.
    You simply stated your preference. You presented no sound reason why anyone ought to tolerate your prejudice.
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  9. #109
    Senior Member UniqueMixture's Avatar
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    He thinks that is "argument."
    For all that we have done, as a civilization, as individuals, the universe is not stable, and nor is any single thing within it. Stars consume themselves, the universe itself rushes apart, and we ourselves are composed of matter in constant flux. Colonies of cells in temporary alliance, replicating and decaying and housed within, an incandescent cloud of electrical impulses. This is reality, this is self knowledge, and the perception of it will, of course, make you dizzy.

  10. #110
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    You simply stated your preference. You presented no sound reason why anyone ought to tolerate your prejudice.
    A valiant effort, but likely fruitless...

    After all, you're wrong just because he thinks you're wrong.
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