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  1. #91
    Whisky Old & Women Young Speed Gavroche's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    You missed my point here. I am saying that what is NORMAL now was once being called the same things earlier. When black people, for example, wanted equal employment rights. Now a days, you don't think twice about having a black person employed, because their race and personal lives and cultures don't matter when it comes to work. Similarly.. transgenders asking for the same respect will eventually get it, because in the end if you get to pick-and-choose who you hire outside of how well they can do the actual job EVERYTHING will fall to pieces.. because then they'll go, "Why can't we discriminate against women for the same reasons?" "Why not blacks?" "Why not asians?" "Why not vegetarians?" Do you see how the grounds for one thing effects many things as well?
    Where's the need for a bureaucracy for this? All of this can happen in a free and spontaneous way.


    So you'd give up your dream job with a simple shrug and a "oh well" just because someone doesn't agree with you on how you live your PERSONAL life away from your career and job?
    If they don't agree with the way I live, they are not forced to associate with me, and I will not force them. Maybe I'd try to defend myself and argue that I still be good at the job. And it may be efficient or not. But I will not cry and use a bureaucracy to impose anything. That's the true difference between someone who's ethical and someone who's not.

    Possibly, there ca be some clause in the contract we signed whi precise when the boss can hire me or not. If theses clauses are violated then the use of the force may be legitimate, but really that's all.

    I'm going to call bullshit all over that one. It isn't FORCING a boss to pay you. It is forcing people to not put their personal opinions into the professional environment. Which is the way it should be.
    You are always putting your personal opinion when you hire somebody. If you want to prevent me to use my personal judement, and to force me to hire and pay someone, that's called dictature, and nothing else.
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  2. #92
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    Where's the need for a bureaucracy for this? All of this can happen in a free and spontaneous way.
    Wtf does free and spontaneous even mean? You mean eventually we'll just wait around for people to change their minds and warm up to the idea? Here's how the world really works: The government tells you what you are or are not going to do, and eventually people will make a big enough fuss that government will change it. There is no in between. No one just warms up to other people--they're TOLD they have to hire people, and the warming up part soon follows.

    If we just let black people and women get hired in a 'free and spontaneous' way we'd still be waiting for jobs.

    If they don't agree with the way I live, they are not forced to associate with me, and I will not force them. Maybe I'd try to defend myself and argue that I still be good at the job. And it may be efficient or not. But I will not cry and use a bureaucracy to impose anything. That's the true difference between someone who's ethical and someone who's not.
    You would if your life depended on it, and bureaucracy was the only way to get it done. People need jobs because they need money. There isn't many other ways of earning it outside of work. Your boss doesn't have to associate with you to give you a job. No one has to agree with you.. But you DO have to make people allow you to work. It happens all the time.

    I had to file an official complaint because once they found out I was in the military they didn't want to hire me. They wanted someone more stable. I needed work, and they were refusing me because I was serving my country. It doesn't matter what other jobs I have, I was qualified and able to work, and they didn't want me to because it was inconvenient for them. But fuck them. They're not the ones struggling and trying to make money to put food on tables, now are they? And that's the problem. If you were struggling, you wouldn't give up. Why you expect anyone else to is ridiculous.

    You are always putting your personal opinion when you hire somebody. If you want to prevent me to use my personal judement, and to force me to hire and pay someone, that's called dictature, and nothing else.
    No, personal opinions are not used for normal hiring processes. When people suspect that to be the case, like in the case of myself, you report them to agencies where their entire job is making sure this doesn't happen. I don't know if you've been in the work force long, but that's the way it goes. At least, here in America. Again, I don't know about else where.
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  3. #93
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    You guys realize he's trolling, right?

  4. #94
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dala View Post
    You guys realize he's trolling, right?
    My dear, if I assumed everyone to be a troll we'd never debate anything ever. Sometimes even things this ridiculous are still things people genuinely think.
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  5. #95
    Whisky Old & Women Young Speed Gavroche's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    Wtf does free and spontaneous even mean? You mean eventually we'll just wait around for people to change their minds and warm up to the idea?
    Yes. And I gave examples which shows that it works.

    Here's how the world really works: The government tells you what you are or are not going to do, and eventually people will make a big enough fuss that government will change it. There is no in between. No one just warms up to other people--they're TOLD they have to hire people, and the warming up part soon follows.
    That's how the world work only throught your bureaucratic point of view, and your blankers threaten you to see that there's something else, more ethical and more efficient.

    f we just let black people and women get hired in a 'free and spontaneous' way we'd still be waiting for jobs.
    It's wrong, and I proved it with real examples and logical reasoning.

    Aren't you a Type 8? So you naturally have problem to understand that things can work outside of your bossy and authiritarian control. You should understand that freedom is the missing of will to dominate peoples. That would be better for you.



    @You would if your life depended on it,
    If my life depended on it, I would assume my choice, or I would not have done this choice. When you are a free and responsible adult that's what you do.

    and bureaucracy was the only way to get it done.
    I proved that it's not. And that bureaucracy increase the problem. Learn to read. A bureaucracy can't create wealth or job, it's inneficient, coercive and useless.


    People need jobs because they need money. There isn't many other ways of earning it outside of work. Your boss doesn't have to associate with you to give you a job. No one has to agree with you.. But you DO have to make people allow you to work. It happens all the time.
    A boss has not the duty to give you a job and a salary. The purpose of your life is your own responsability, a boss is not responsible for yourself, so, if he don't thing that there's enough good reason to pay you, he's not forced to do it.

    I had to file an official complaint because once they found out I was in the military they didn't want to hire me. They wanted someone more stable. I needed work, and they were refusing me because I was serving my country. It doesn't matter what other jobs I have, I was qualified and able to work, and they didn't want me to because it was inconvenient for them.
    If they consider you are an inconvenient for them, imposing yourself is an agression.

    Do you think that is an encouragement for people to create wealth and job when thay are denied of their freedom to chose who they want to hire? Of course no. So people create less job, unemployement increases, and problems of discrimination increases too.

    But fuck them. They're not the ones struggling and trying to make money to put food on tables, now are they?
    Actually they are. A compagny have the responsability to generate profit to avoid bankrupt and supression of jobs of many other peoples who, like the compagny boss, struggle for their life as much as you.

    And there was probably many other candidates for the job, peoples who were as much competent as you or more, fitted better with the compagny's criteria and struggle with their life as much as you or even more. But you used the force of a bureaucracy to get an advantage over them, there's nothing fair and equal in that.

    Everyone is not forced to like the military. Surprised?


    I don't know if you've been in the work force long, but that's the way it goes. At least, here in America. Again, I don't know about else where.
    Yes, there's theses sort of forceful bureaucracy in France too, which do nothing to lower the big level of unemployement that we have here.

    In particulary we have the HALDE. So here is what usually happen:

    -there's several candidates for a job

    -there's a set of candidates who have the same level of competence, the boss choose one of them

    -if one (or even several) of the non-selected candidates happen to be member of a "minority" (gay, arab, woman, transgender, something...) or has any particularity that might be used to claim he is discriminated, he go to see the HALDE and use it

    -the HALDE claim that the candidate has been unfairly discriminated, they have no means to judge if the candidate is more competent or not, and the more there's "discriminated" peoples, the more they can justify their power and keep their job so they are not objective

    -finally, the candidate get the job, not because of his competence, but ultimately because he showed an outside characteristic and a membership to a group

    -people become more reluctants about creating new jobs. Who would want to risk a lawsuit if they have not hired the right person according to the bureaucracy?

    -unemployement increase, and then the problems of discrimination increase too. Bureaucrats take profit of this, if the situation improved, they would loose their job payed with taxes, so they are not driven to fix the problems.
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  6. #96
    Secret Sex Freak Hazashin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    It's a bureaucracy power supported by a lobby.
    What do you mean?

    You are, since you want to force a boss to hire a transgender.
    A boss isn't forced to hire a transgender, but he just can't NOT hire a transgender on that fact alone, regardless of how competent they are at the work.

    Because it's spoliation.
    What do you mean?

    Yes, but it was spontaneous, not forced by the State. And it worked despite society was far more poor than it is today. While now the society is more rich, but the welfare state must face a growing and constant problem of indebtedness which leads to inflation, poverty and unemployement.
    It was only "spontaneous" and "not forced" because humans genuinely cared about working together for mutual survival. Now that society is more rich, as you say, people take advantage of this and work this system in their favor to suit their own needs and forget about everyone else's, because it's not as critical as it was before.

    Back then, everything was harder to come by, so our survival depended on us working together. Now the problem is that people aren't willing to help out other people and feel like they can discriminate whoever they want because there are more resources and money out there. The problem is, those resources and money lie mostly in the hands of companies and the government, and since we have run into problems with minorities being discriminated from being hired, governmental laws were created to make sure that those people who have those resources and money don't discriminate on the basis of anything other than competency of work.

    Proof that the private sector is far more able to manage and allocate ressources for public health than the State who's just a mafia who spoliate peoples and is not responsible for anything.
    Could you provide examples?

    Also, you never responded to this post of mine:

    If you allow people to discriminate, then you are basically saying that the rights of those who discriminate are more valuable than those who are being discriminated.

    In other words, you are saying that the rights of others are more important than others'. I don't see how that's fair.
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  7. #97
    Intergalactic Badass mujigay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post



    That's how the world work only throught your bureaucratic point of view, and your blankers threaten you to see that there's something else, more ethical and more efficient.

    How on earth is it more ethical or efficient to sit around and twiddle your thumbs while injustice occurs in the hopes that someday the masses will have a spontaneous brainwave and become more accepting? Social progress doesn't occur just like that. It takes work, and yes, it takes government involvement. Do you honestly think the media or the workplace would look like it does today without some form of civil rights legislation? We'd be waiting around another hundred more years to get to the point where we are today. I don't see how complacency is moral.
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  8. #98
    Whisky Old & Women Young Speed Gavroche's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazashin View Post
    What do you mean?
    Whait is written.


    A boss isn't forced to hire a transgender, but he just can't NOT hire a transgender on that fact alone, regardless of how competent they are at the work.
    The bureaucracy can't judge if the transgender is competent or not, but will decide that he is, and that the boss must hire him, that is forcing him to hire the transgender.

    And if he prefers to hire someone else than the transgender, then it's his right. Discrimination is making a choice between several things. Actually, by forcing him to hire the transgender specifically, we forbid the non-transgenders to get the job.


    What do you mean?
    It's a violation of property right, so it's spoliation.



    It was only "spontaneous" and "not forced" because humans genuinely cared about working together for mutual survival. Now that society is more rich, as you say, people take advantage of this and work this system in their favor to suit their own needs and forget about everyone else's, because it's not as critical as it was before.
    Yes, that's why, for exemple, people make less children, and expect that the children of others will pay their retirement. It doesn't work.

    Back then, everything was harder to come by, so our survival depended on us working together. Now the problem is that people aren't willing to help out other people and feel like they can discriminate whoever they want because there are more resources and money out there. The problem is, those resources and money lie mostly in the hands of companies and the government, and since we have run into problems with minorities being discriminated from being hired, governmental laws were created to make sure that those people who have those resources and money don't discriminate on the basis of anything other than competency of work.
    As I said, the bureaucracy can't be objective, so it doesn't work.



    Could you provide examples?
    -the HALDE claim that the candidate has been unfairly discriminated, they have no means to judge if the candidate is more competent or not, and the more there's "discriminated" peoples, the more they can justify their power and keep their job so they are not objective

    -finally, the candidate get the job, not because of his competence, but ultimately because he showed an outside characteristic and a membership to a group

    -people become more reluctants about creating new jobs. Who would want to risk a lawsuit if they have not hired the right person according to the bureaucracy?

    -unemployement increase, and then the problems of discrimination increase too. Bureaucrats take profit of this, if the situation improved, they would loose their job payed with taxes, so they are not driven to fix the problems.
    Also, you never responded to this post of mine:[/QUOTE]

    If you allow people to discriminate, then you are basically saying that the rights of those who discriminate are more valuable than those who are being discriminated.

    In other words, you are saying that the rights of others are more important than others'. I don't see how that's fair.
    I did. Just didn't quote you specifically.

    People's rights are life, property, and freedom, which means the right to not do what you have consented to.

    If a transgender is not hired by the boss, he still alive, he has not beeen stolen and he is not forced to do anything, he still free.

    However, if a transgender use to force of a bureaucracy to force a boss to hire him and pay him, he violates his freedom and his property right, basically doing an agression.
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  9. #99
    Whisky Old & Women Young Speed Gavroche's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mujigay View Post
    How on earth is it more ethical or efficient to sit around and twiddle your thumbs while injustice occurs in the hopes that someday the masses will have a spontaneous brainwave and become more accepting?
    Because the only one justice is to respect the freedom and liberty of thought of everybody.

    Social progress doesn't occur just like that.
    I've ever proved that it works.

    It takes work, and yes, it takes government involvement. Do you honestly think the media or the workplace would look like it does today without some form of civil rights legislation?
    Damn, no! I think the media and the workplace would be 10 times better without theses idiots legislations.

    We'd be waiting around another hundred more years to get to the point where we are today. I don't see how complacency is moral.
    The best way to fix the problems of discrimination is full employement, so that employers have not to discriminate between several peoples for one job. And the best and qwickest way to get full employement is laissez-faire capitalist, which can solve the problem of unemployement in the shortest time. Probably less than one generation.

    So don't do anything and everything will be done.

    You are 1, so you basically feel like if we let people do what they want, we would have chaos, but it's a purely subjective impression. For your personal development, you should better take that away.
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  10. #100
    Whisky Old & Women Young Speed Gavroche's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    My dear, if I assumed everyone to be a troll we'd never debate anything ever. Sometimes even things this ridiculous are still things people genuinely think.
    Indeed. Acrually, is called "trolling" everything which challenge the church of political correctness. In this regard, trolling is one of the best generator of truth in the Internet.
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