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  1. #11
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    And don't get me wrong. There was a time in this country when the American dream was real. In the early 20th century it was much easier to pull yourself up from the bottom. Plenty of people in our grandparents (or my grandparents) generation did this.

    People also used to own more small, locally owned businesses. It wasn't as difficult to compete because there were less major corporations. People competed more fairly, with true hard work and innovation with their family owned businesses.

    Corporatism actually really started popping up in the 60's, but didn't actually become the disease that is neo-conservatism until the 1980s, and then globalization...and yeah.

    I am not objecting to the actual history of this country, I am objecting to the absurd notion that the American dream still exists, and it is much, much more difficult to transcend one's socioeconomic class in our generation because of corporatism.

    I would even be a Republican if this were the 1950's. But it's not. The insane have taken over.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    the businessman gets more results, so he gets more money; the hard labor worker gets less results, so he gets payed less. hard work is correlated with income, but it would be silly to think the two should be directly correlated.
    What you said applies to the small business only. Executive compensation in big business is NOT based on performance. Take a look at the historic rise in CEO pay vs business expansion. These people get paid obscenely because they created a corrupt system that allows them to set their own pay.

  3. #13
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    What you said applies to the small business only. Executive compensation in big business is NOT based on performance. Take a look at the historic rise in CEO pay vs business expansion. These people get paid obscenely because they created a corrupt system that allows them to set their own pay.
    I'm not refuting that. I am a capitalist, but also anti-corporation
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  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    What you said applies to the small business only. Executive compensation in big business is NOT based on performance. Take a look at the historic rise in CEO pay vs business expansion. These people get paid obscenely because they created a corrupt system that allows them to set their own pay.
    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    I'm not refuting that. I am a capitalist, but I also anti-corporation
    Okay, then you and I do agree.

  5. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Well people don't want entitlement programs, because they're goddamned retarded, and they'd like us to return to the Dark Ages, or perhaps just a kind of fiefdom arrangement.

    People don't want to pay taxes. They want the government to provide better roads, better schools, et al...but they don't want to pay taxes. People in this country, in my opinion, have a warped perception of reality. Too much importance is placed on things like distraction, entertainment, and junk food...and not enough on things that are actually necessary. This is reflected in the how salaries are very high for relatively unnecessary people who do very little to contribute to society. Then those people don't want to pay any taxes, because essentially they have the mind of thieves. They want to capitalize on the society without giving anything back.

    A lot of laws in this country are shitty, too. Our prisons are overcrowded because of some of our laws.
    They feel entitled to their money but dont feel anyone should feel entitled to money they might receive. Class struggles.

    Although prisons are overcrowded because idiots learn too slowly that breaking the law has consequences.

  6. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    I'm not refuting that. I am a capitalist, but also anti-corporation
    Which makes you objectively pro-corporation because any capitalist measure enacted now will directly benefit corporations whether that is the intention or not. Its the same as Orwell describing pacifists as objectively pro-Hitler during the war because appeasement had failed.

  7. #17

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    One of the greatest cultural contradictions of capitalism is that it demands people earn and save as producers and spend, spend, spend as consumers, however globalisation is meant to have corrected that since different nations at different stages of development and with different cultures can perform those sepereate roles of producers and consumers.

    China is the nation of savers. Putting them in a funny position with respect to the west.

    They also dont have a great financial sector yet and the west does, the UK and US because of their own internal politics have wound down and wound up their agriculture and industry and become dependent on finance who're now needing thrifty producers who will want savings accounts, the new money capitalists of market maoism especially would like foreign accounts to circumvent taxes.

    However, while presently the west has something the east needs there is still objectively a dependency there, it looks pretty evenly balanced with both sides needing each other but will it stay that way? Wont the Chinese just develop their own financial sector like Wall St. or The City? Even if that's not immediate were is the incentive of the west to try and break out of their dependency upon domestic finance for GDP and foreign supply for goods and consumer durables? It means more and more hinges upon a globalisation which national economic power struggles could derail any time.

    That is worrisome when one of the players is asserting its ethnical distinction from everyone else, small step from ethnical distinction to ethnical supremacy. This whole thing about race I never considered being a factor in a supposedly communist regime before but then I realise that ancestoral veneration was a cultural norm preceeding Maoism and a lot of post-communist regimes have collapsed into ethnical struggles and ethnical wars, ie yugoslavia, bosnia, serbia, croatia, the balkans.

  8. #18
    Senior Member Munchies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Well people don't want entitlement programs, because they're goddamned retarded, and they'd like us to return to the Dark Ages, or perhaps just a kind of fiefdom arrangement.

    People don't want to pay taxes. They want the government to provide better roads, better schools, et al...but they don't want to pay taxes. People in this country, in my opinion, have a warped perception of reality. Too much importance is placed on things like distraction, entertainment, and junk food...and not enough on things that are actually necessary. This is reflected in the how salaries are very high for relatively unnecessary people who do very little to contribute to society. Then those people don't want to pay any taxes, because essentially they have the mind of thieves. They want to capitalize on the society without giving anything back.

    A lot of laws in this country are shitty, too. Our prisons are overcrowded because of some of our laws.
    You dodged all his main points. Rail Tracer +5 you -2342345235623452345
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  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Munchies View Post
    You dodged all his main points. Rail Tracer +5 you -2342345235623452345
    I didn't dodge anything. You're reading into something that isn't there.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Well people don't want entitlement programs, because they're goddamned retarded, and they'd like us to return to the Dark Ages, or perhaps just a kind of fiefdom arrangement.

    People don't want to pay taxes. They want the government to provide better roads, better schools, et al...but they don't want to pay taxes. People in this country, in my opinion, have a warped perception of reality. Too much importance is placed on things like distraction, entertainment, and junk food...and not enough on things that are actually necessary. This is reflected in the how salaries are very high for relatively unnecessary people who do very little to contribute to society. Then those people don't want to pay any taxes, because essentially they have the mind of thieves. They want to capitalize on the society without giving anything back.

    A lot of laws in this country are shitty, too. Our prisons are overcrowded because of some of our laws.
    Like I said, the government owes its own people more than the people owe the government (and certainly more than the government owes China)

    Now that the thread split, entitlement is a misconstrued word use by those who don't want to give what they owe or don't want to help those of what they got (often, by the help of the government.) Remember, the debt we owe to China is hogwash, it is a deflection to not look at our own problems by pointing the problems at another country as a scapegoat.

    Private corporations and government use the word entitlement to deflect the need to pay up (a big example is retirement funds.... big corporations and government screwed them over. In fact, they screwed the youth over too.) It is one of many reasons why corporations and congress are seen at such a horrible light these days. We didn't get into this mess by accident. And we certainly didn't get into such a rising inequality in America by accident. If anything is an example of this, we don't need to look any further besides when the recent recession hit.

    It is why the ratings for congress is at a historic low. [[Link]]
    It is why so many people hate corporations. [[Link]] (yes, everybody, Independents, Republicans, and Democrats opposed it by a large margin.)
    It is why the inequality in America is going up. [[Link]] Note: Also the Occupy Movement.

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