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  1. #21
    Let me count the ways Betty Blue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    And if they decide that someone who is trans shouldnt participate, for whatever reasons, is that still the case or should a publicity campaign for the inclusion of transgendered people be mounted by a vocal minority?
    If the decision is based solely on the person being trans then yes, because it is discriminatory. I also nominate you to head it... with true belief in equality driving you.
    "We knew he was someone who had a tragic flaw, that's where his greatness came from"

  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by HelenOfTroy View Post
    If the decision is based solely on the person being trans then yes, because it is discriminatory. I also nominate you to head it... with true belief in equality driving you.
    I gather you dont believe that I have any belief in equality. I've got a great appreciation for complex equality and I'd wager know better how it relates to minority-majority relations too.

  3. #23
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    It's kind of disingenuous for a professed scholar of history and movements to not recognize the role that political protest by a minority plays in any culture, let alone democratic ones. The disenfranchised have no power except protest, and women and black rights would have never occurred had not the minority protested a rigid decision by the majority demographic.

    In this case, it was not even really much of a protest, if one even bothers to examine the story. She got bumped after being selected as Miss Canada despite having been relatively "out" the entire time, she was potentially reinstated after a period of a few days, and now after a prolonged discussion, they're formulating new rules to be fair to those who have legally and medically been designated female by established representatives of their respective countries. This is the kind of readjustment that occurs in any kind of social organization, from a family of four up to a small workplace environment up through an entire state or even country. If the rules, after being examined and people making their case, were inadequate for the situation, then they are reformulated.

    As far as I know, there was no world-wide boycott; no rioting in the streets; no burning government buildings; no threats against the lives and families of designated officials; and here in the US, it's kind of been a non-issue, more like a curiosity than anything else, rather than some huge political push. "Oh, GLAAD is consulting with them. That's nice." I haven't even heard much organized defiance within the trans community about it, aside from a few people bitching.

    IOW, I think the protest here is a bit overblown in terms of what this event represents, and I'm not sure why one is rigidly clinging to a traditionalist opinion, especially without any good case being made to maintain things the way they had been except, "This is the way it was to begin with."

    Trump, of course, managed to benefit from this. His pageant got even more publicity, and he ALSO managed to position himself as a "nice" guy by dismissing her, then "listening to the complaints" and generously changing his mind. They certainly did not seem to fight the change much. I wouldn't be surprised if this was a possibility brought up when they were first deciding what to do.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #24
    Ginkgo
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    She's hot. What's the fuss about?

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ginkgo View Post
    She's hot. What's the fuss about?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFL1UXuHJ-A&t=3

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgOIEGz7o_s&t=15

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  8. #28
    Let me count the ways Betty Blue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I gather you dont believe that I have any belief in equality. I've got a great appreciation for complex equality and I'd wager know better how it relates to minority-majority relations too.
    Great, happy to see i'm not on your ignore list. I promise to get back to this when i have finished my vent fix... just hoping you don't bow out early as per.
    "We knew he was someone who had a tragic flaw, that's where his greatness came from"

  9. #29
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    Opposition to this event (which actually seems very common amongst people due to what I have read on other forums and message boards) stems from the fact, that most (if not all) beauty pageants only permit female members, and on a technical merit, Jenna Talackova could still be considered a man. Some people would never recognize her as a female, because although she now lacks the male reproductive organs that she was born with, she still possesses an xy chromosome in addition to lack of a uterus/other female organs.

    However I recognize a division between two crucial things in this matter; sex and gender. The former is determined by birth, and to a certain extent not completely changeable. Yes a person can go through sex surgery, but the process can never be 100% complete. Gender on the other hand, exists outside biological or physical merit; if one looks like acts like, and embraces the social role of a male or female, then they're are that gender. And I think that's how we should respect people like Jenna; not for what she is or was physically, but who she is as a person. We should move beyond the recognition of sex and only value the specific gender.

    I'm also glad that she's able to participate in the beauty pageant; it shows a great level of tolerance as a people and desire for progress when a new way of embracing something is accepted and treated with equality. Hopefully now more beauty contests will readjust their rules to accommodate transsexuals. Or better yet, we should do away with traditional beauty pageants, and have new ones where people of either sex or gender may participate, and where beauty is measured not just on image alone, but on a person's character instead.

  10. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by HelenOfTroy View Post
    Great, happy to see i'm not on your ignore list. I promise to get back to this when i have finished my vent fix... just hoping you don't bow out early as per.
    You are on my ignore list, I just checked the post, as I do now and again but thanks for the reminder of why you belong there.

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