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  1. #21
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    I find your stance on avoiding talking about differences a little odd, since it's a little like being adamant about not describing MBTI type differences because they can lead to stereotyping—which can happen! But providing a model for conceptualizing differences can also lead to more tolerance and understanding, at least if a positive intent exists. I started looking into these issues when I found myself unable to shift my perspective to adequately understand the stances I saw some conservatives taking. I would agree though, that one could interpret a lot of this information to reinforce stereotypes and paint the other side as stupid. There are dangers in both describing differences and asserting sameness.
    Like I said, I'm just wary of the conversations.

    I've seen enough of em devolve into monkey shit fights at the zoo that I try to avoid where I can.

  2. #22
    Senior Member UniqueMixture's Avatar
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    No, I'm sorry I don't want to devolve into fighting over the scraps for survival. Fault me for it if you will, but I don't believe one can be happy in economic codependency. Scratch that- FULFILLED a true human expressed as they were meant to be
    For all that we have done, as a civilization, as individuals, the universe is not stable, and nor is any single thing within it. Stars consume themselves, the universe itself rushes apart, and we ourselves are composed of matter in constant flux. Colonies of cells in temporary alliance, replicating and decaying and housed within, an incandescent cloud of electrical impulses. This is reality, this is self knowledge, and the perception of it will, of course, make you dizzy.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by UniqueMixture View Post
    No, I'm sorry I don't want to devolve into fighting over the scraps for survival. Fault me for it if you will, but I don't believe one can be happy in economic codependency. Scratch that- FULFILLED a true human expressed as they were meant to be
    Can you elaborate? What is economic codependency and what is the alternative?

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    Great OP by Seymour - I remember watching that Ted talk by Jonathan Haidt and really liked it - and interesting and good analysis by DiscoBiscuit. It has also been said that the constant connectedness and 24/7 coverage has forced politicians to constantly come up with new soundbites, giving them less time to consider an issue and analyse all sides of it which, as we have just heard, favors gut reactions.




    However, since that mild liberal bias of traditional mass media was mentioned, I can't help thinking of good old Colbert:

    The good life is one inspired by love and guided by knowledge. Neither love without knowledge, nor knowledge without love can produce a good life. - Bertrand Russell
    A herring's blog
    Johari / Nohari

  5. #25
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    I dont think there's a liberal bias in the media, certainly not in the UK and I wouldnt say in the UK, definitely not fiscally and I would say not culturally. Perhaps I'm being charitable but the permissive, anything goes and everyone should validate everyone else isnt really liberal, unless its a pretty feeble and vulgarised liberalism. I just see it all as an outgrowth or absurd extention of unconscious anxiety and ambivalence arising from the all pervasive consumerist norms.

  6. #26
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    since that mild liberal bias of traditional mass media was mentioned, I can't help thinking of good old Colbert:
    It's one of those issues where your view depends on where you stand.

    I wasn't saying that that bias was a bad or unnatural thing, just that it existed.

    I would think it would arise naturally from the nature of the profession.

  7. #27
    Senior Member UniqueMixture's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Can you elaborate? What is economic codependency and what is the alternative?
    I think of economics and emotional/mental/spiritual growth as being intertwined. I think when you are a member of a group that is acting like a parasite on the human race there is an innate desire to rationalize it in order to feel good about yourself. Furthermore, I think economic systems favor different kinds of mental models and how you feel about the world and have an effect on how you relate to people. To me economic codependency is this sort of mutual parasitism that makes one group use more than average resources with corresponding emotional development impairment it just doesn't FEEL good to be that tense all the time, so work hard play hard, take out all that stress with alcoholism, coke, fucking whatever works. On the opposite end of the spectrum people are doing THE EXACT SAME FUCKING THINGS to escape the misery of poverty or shame they feel etc.

    I think conservatives tend to make this imbalance worse because they mistakenly think everything will be ok by seeking control behaviors. Liberals have their own flaws as well in different areas. I think the alternative is to have more varied experience to be honest. Because when you have lived both ways, and really felt what it means to idenify and feel as each, then you stop accepting either as viable and you find a way to become FULFILLED taking the strengths of each and leaving behind as much of the negatives of each as you can.
    For all that we have done, as a civilization, as individuals, the universe is not stable, and nor is any single thing within it. Stars consume themselves, the universe itself rushes apart, and we ourselves are composed of matter in constant flux. Colonies of cells in temporary alliance, replicating and decaying and housed within, an incandescent cloud of electrical impulses. This is reality, this is self knowledge, and the perception of it will, of course, make you dizzy.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by UniqueMixture View Post
    I think of economics and emotional/mental/spiritual growth as being intertwined. I think when you are a member of a group that is acting like a parasite on the human race there is an innate desire to rationalize it in order to feel good about yourself. Furthermore, I think economic systems favor different kinds of mental models and how you feel about the world and have an effect on how you relate to people. To me economic codependency is this sort of mutual parasitism that makes one group use more than average resources with corresponding emotional development impairment it just doesn't FEEL good to be that tense all the time, so work hard play hard, take out all that stress with alcoholism, coke, fucking whatever works. On the opposite end of the spectrum people are doing THE EXACT SAME FUCKING THINGS to escape the misery of poverty or shame they feel etc.

    I think conservatives tend to make this imbalance worse because they mistakenly think everything will be ok by seeking control behaviors. Liberals have their own flaws as well in different areas. I think the alternative is to have more varied experience to be honest. Because when you have lived both ways, and really felt what it means to idenify and feel as each, then you stop accepting either as viable and you find a way to become FULFILLED taking the strengths of each and leaving behind as much of the negatives of each as you can.
    I dont know about your prescription but I'm interested in your description, is this a theory you've come up with yourself or do you have primary sources?

    I know a couple of books which are congruent with what you're saying, although they dont use the same language.

  9. #29
    Senior Member UniqueMixture's Avatar
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    My own thing I guess? I've noticed a lot of the youngest generation (24 and below) tend to intuitively grasp it. This is why I agree with you so much on the concept of spirituality being necessary for humans to develop healthy interaction styles with one another. For me though, I think it has to be a materialist (not materialistic per se) spirituality or else it can't be truly cohesive with the scientific understanding of the world as well.

    Edit: adding more

    I think as we develop more technology we will use more and more augmented reality for wish fulfillment/to meet basic emotional needs that are less likely to be met now in the world that we're in. At first, I think this will actually be detrimental, but I think over time it will force us to emotionally confront ourselves both individually and collectively to find new ways to interact and work together to create a living universe that has the complexity to truly be representative of every kind of cognition, soul, experience, heart, consciousness, whatever that could exist.
    For all that we have done, as a civilization, as individuals, the universe is not stable, and nor is any single thing within it. Stars consume themselves, the universe itself rushes apart, and we ourselves are composed of matter in constant flux. Colonies of cells in temporary alliance, replicating and decaying and housed within, an incandescent cloud of electrical impulses. This is reality, this is self knowledge, and the perception of it will, of course, make you dizzy.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by UniqueMixture View Post
    My own thing I guess? I've noticed a lot of the youngest generation (24 and below) tend to intuitively grasp it. This is why I agree with you so much on the concept of spirituality being necessary for humans to develop healthy interaction styles with one another. For me though, I think it has to be a materialist (not materialistic per se) spirituality or else it can't be truly cohesive with the scientific understanding of the world as well.

    Edit: adding more

    I think as we develop more technology we will use more and more augmented reality for wish fulfillment/to meet basic emotional needs that are less likely to be met now in the world that we're in. At first, I think this will actually be detrimental, but I think over time it will force us to emotionally confront ourselves both individually and collectively to find new ways to interact and work together to create a living universe that has the complexity to truly be representative of every kind of cognition, soul, experience, heart, consciousness, whatever that could exist.
    A lot of what you've written is similar to Erich Fromm's ideas, although he developed a lot of it from a certain sort of marxism to be honest.

    I dont know in what sense you mean materialist, I dont see any problematic conflict between religion of a metaphysical kind and science, if you mean that it should be humanistic then I would agree, at least in its application.

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