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  1. #1
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Default Chinese origins different from the rest of the human race?

    I'm watching a documentary which the BBC produced examining the origins of the human species, it details in the first couple of episodes how the majority of the human race can trace its origins to Africa, however, the episodes I'm watching how detail how the Chinese maintain, on the basis of finds from before the second world war, that they had a distinct origin which is different from that of the rest of the humanrace.

    I was wondering about the significance of this, does anyone think that this is concerning? Does it matter that one of the most ascendent economic and political superpowers is maintaining that it had a seperate racial/ethnic origin to everyone else?

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    Link or name?

  3. #3
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    Oh dear.

    They are a separate haplogroup, the Chinese, but the same major race as not only the Japanese, Koreans, etc. but also Native Americans.

    This is what I keep hearing about how racist Asians are. That, and you know, my ENFJ bff's grandmother informing her that "Japanese are the master race!"

    This is why I look into racial issues with a very skeptical eye, because I know that any group of people can believe themselves to be Best Korea, so to speak.

    I mean of course the English saw themselves as superior, et al.

    Many people channel this sort of thinking into sports teams now days. I'm not sure how "concerned" I am that the Chinese believe this about themselves. I'm more concerned with the United States' stupidity for owing them so much money.

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    if they are humans they have the same origins as others..

    i guess what you were trying to say was that they got separated from the rest long time ago. personally i dont see any significance in this, it has been common knowledge as long as i can remember.
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    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I'm watching a documentary which the BBC produced examining the origins of the human species, it details in the first couple of episodes how the majority of the human race can trace its origins to Africa, however, the episodes I'm watching how detail how the Chinese maintain, on the basis of finds from before the second world war, that they had a distinct origin which is different from that of the rest of the humanrace.

    I was wondering about the significance of this, does anyone think that this is concerning? Does it matter that one of the most ascendent economic and political superpowers is maintaining that it had a seperate racial/ethnic origin to everyone else?
    Are you watching the Incredible Human Journey? If you are, then you should have seen the part about the genetic test that debunked that idea.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

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    Senior Member pinkgraffiti's Avatar
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    yes, its one of two possibilities. but its not so important. there were 2 expansions from africa. the first gave origin to everyone, including the chinese. the 2nd is the one where the chinese origin is questionable. i wouldn't put too much thought into it, unless you are a specialist or are concerned about very minor detail, because we are talking about less than 99% DNA sequence difference here.
    please don't draw speculations about other fields (culture, politics, etc) from this, it would not make sense. the few times people tried to find parallelisms between biology and sociology, it just failed (see: eugenics, 2nd world war)
    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I'm watching a documentary which the BBC produced examining the origins of the human species, it details in the first couple of episodes how the majority of the human race can trace its origins to Africa, however, the episodes I'm watching how detail how the Chinese maintain, on the basis of finds from before the second world war, that they had a distinct origin which is different from that of the rest of the humanrace.

    I was wondering about the significance of this, does anyone think that this is concerning? Does it matter that one of the most ascendent economic and political superpowers is maintaining that it had a seperate racial/ethnic origin to everyone else?

  7. #7
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinkgraffiti View Post
    yes, its one of two possibilities. but its not so important. there were 2 expansions from africa. the first gave origin to everyone, including the chinese. the 2nd is the one where the chinese origin is questionable. i wouldn't put too much thought into it, unless you are a specialist or are concerned about very minor detail, because we are talking about less than 99% DNA sequence difference here.
    please don't draw speculations about other fields (culture, politics, etc) from this, it would not make sense. the few times people tried to find parallelisms between biology and sociology, it just failed (see: eugenics, 2nd world war)
    I wouldnt link eugenics, a good idea, and the second world war, which was necessary but not a good idea in so far as war isnt ever a good idea but rather a last resort.

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    Senior Member pinkgraffiti's Avatar
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    fine but that wasn't the point. i meant to say don't draw conclusions on sociology from biology. i just gave you an example, and i did so because you started thinking about making links between biology and economy/politics: "I was wondering about the significance of this, does anyone think that this is concerning? Does it matter that one of the most ascendent economic and political superpowers is maintaining that it had a seperate racial/ethnic origin to everyone else?" and this is dangerous because of this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Darwinism "Social Darwinism is a term commonly used for theories of society that emerged in England and the United States in the 1870s, seeking to apply the principles of Darwinian evolution to sociology and politics. It especially refers to notions of struggle for existence being used to justify social policies which make no distinction between those able to support themselves and those unable to support themselves. The most prominent form of such views stressed competition between individuals in laissez-faire capitalism; but it is also connected to the ideas of eugenics, scientific racism, imperialism, fascism, Nazism and struggle between national or racial groups."

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I wouldnt link eugenics, a good idea, and the second world war, which was necessary but not a good idea in so far as war isnt ever a good idea but rather a last resort.

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    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinkgraffiti View Post
    fine but that wasn't the point. i meant to say don't draw conclusions on sociology from biology. i just gave you an example, and i did so because you started thinking about making links between biology and economy/politics: "I was wondering about the significance of this, does anyone think that this is concerning? Does it matter that one of the most ascendent economic and political superpowers is maintaining that it had a seperate racial/ethnic origin to everyone else?" and this is dangerous because of this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Darwinism "Social Darwinism is a term commonly used for theories of society that emerged in England and the United States in the 1870s, seeking to apply the principles of Darwinian evolution to sociology and politics. It especially refers to notions of struggle for existence being used to justify social policies which make no distinction between those able to support themselves and those unable to support themselves. The most prominent form of such views stressed competition between individuals in laissez-faire capitalism; but it is also connected to the ideas of eugenics, scientific racism, imperialism, fascism, Nazism and struggle between national or racial groups."
    I wasnt linking the rise of China as an economic superpower to their maintaining that they have a seperate racial/ethnic origin to everyone else, I'm concerned that powerful people could think that because it has consequences for the rest of us and how they will exercise their power.

    I see what you did there, also what you'd like to talk about, although why not do that instead of insinuating that I'm making links between biology and sociology? If I was I can assure you I would be pretty plain and pointed in doing so and there would be no doubt as to the fact that was what I was suggesting. Now, you're concerned that linking biology and sociology results in social darwinism? That's alright, I suppose, it is one possible, although not necessarily the only result, its also not necessarily the case that social darwinism and eugenics are fundamentally linked.

    Do you know who else was one of the chief proponents of ideas derivative from social darwinism and eugenics? The socialists Sidney and Beatrice Webb, chief architects of the post-war welare state in the UK, which most people are not prepared, I would say reasonably, to dispense with even if they dont believe any longer in socialism or dont believe that welfare states are synomynous with socialism anyway.

    Isnt that sort of rapid fire association game fawled reasoning? I mean you could as easily say that funding a space programme is a threat to democracy and human rights because the Nazis did research which in part made the accomplishments of NASA in the space race possible.

  10. #10
    Senior Member pinkgraffiti's Avatar
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    ok, i'm happy you were worried about other people making links, and not yourself.
    also, you are very "cause-istic". i am merely given examples, i'm not taking the whole.
    i am indeed worried about said links because i am a biologist, so this is my concern (and this is also my specialty, so if you want further comments or explanations on something biology-related, you can come to me )
    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I wasnt linking the rise of China as an economic superpower to their maintaining that they have a seperate racial/ethnic origin to everyone else, I'm concerned that powerful people could think that because it has consequences for the rest of us and how they will exercise their power.

    I see what you did there, also what you'd like to talk about, although why not do that instead of insinuating that I'm making links between biology and sociology? If I was I can assure you I would be pretty plain and pointed in doing so and there would be no doubt as to the fact that was what I was suggesting. Now, you're concerned that linking biology and sociology results in social darwinism? That's alright, I suppose, it is one possible, although not necessarily the only result, its also not necessarily the case that social darwinism and eugenics are fundamentally linked.

    Do you know who else was one of the chief proponents of ideas derivative from social darwinism and eugenics? The socialists Sidney and Beatrice Webb, chief architects of the post-war welare state in the UK, which most people are not prepared, I would say reasonably, to dispense with even if they dont believe any longer in socialism or dont believe that welfare states are synomynous with socialism anyway.

    Isnt that sort of rapid fire association game fawled reasoning? I mean you could as easily say that funding a space programme is a threat to democracy and human rights because the Nazis did research which in part made the accomplishments of NASA in the space race possible.

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