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  1. #11
    Freaking Ratchet Rail Tracer's Avatar
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    I'm guessing what I am trying to say isn't going across correctly. But I'll just make it simple.
    I do believe that they (and those who are marginalized) should be loud about stereotypes/racism (like I said, I've token sociology... and I know they are one of the most marginalized)

    How the situation is handled currently and how it is used, not so much. <----- unless that part can be understood, then trying to see what I am trying to say isn't possible.

    I can't remember the case a few years back about an African American man being dragged by car that made headlines.... there is a big difference between that incident and this one. The public outcry of the first one was undeniably justifiable. This case, on the other hand, is muddled in fog.

  2. #12
    Senior Member Viridian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    This is a good post with great points.

    IMHO Obama, as both POTUS and a biracial man, has a moral obligation to align himself with the teen. The specifics of Treyvon's case aren't what's important, what is important is that every black male has had that experience to some degree (obviously most of those experience aren't grave enough to end with murder). That shared experience comes from "black male" = dangerous. It's the fear behind racism that puts lives in genuine danger.

    Anyway, it's just like how every female prime minister has advanced women's rights for their citizens. Most men didn't like that either, and argued that same thing: it's isolating to their voting public.



    @swordpath It's just a logical fallacy to assume that because some black men do to others what's being done to them, that it's all a neutral wash out in the end. Evidence: look at the research on how double or triple categorized people (e.g. gay/black/woman/islamic) don't experience those biases equally. It's not even close. Some screw them over more than others, and it depends on the situation.

    I'm a big believer that there's a moral obligation to align oneself who those are unfairly marginalized that comes before making white men comfortable. (Or whoever is being screwed over. For example: men in custody battles are unfairly marginalized, and there's a moral obligation for women to say "hold up--let's evaluate each custody battle on its own merit looking at the v. specific two parents rather than assuming the mom is the right answer without looking at the specific evidence. Otherwise we're being sexist.)

    Black male walking at night = potential trouble for the black male based solely on that information.
    Have you read this article? I think it elaborates on your position here, in a way.
    Tentative typing: ISFJ 6w5 or 9w1 (Sp/S[?]).

  3. #13
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rail Tracer View Post
    I'm guessing what I am trying to say isn't going across correctly. But I'll just make it simple.
    I do believe that they (and those who are marginalized) should be loud about stereotypes/racism (like I said, I've token sociology... and I know they are one of the most marginalized)

    How the situation is handled currently and how it is used, not so much. <----- unless that part can be understood, then trying to see what I am trying to say isn't possible.

    I can't remember the case a few years back about an African American man being dragged by car that made headlines.... there is a big difference between that incident and this one. The public outcry of the first one was undeniably justifiable. This case, on the other hand, is muddled in fog.
    @Viridian 's link says it best:

    Most white folks are good and decent. A notable few have been allies to people of color in our struggle to make America a more fair and inclusive country for all of its citizens. But in total, white Americans have demonstrated quite a bit of naivete and innocence about matters of race. For example, at the height of the Civil Rights Movement public opinion data suggested that most white Americans believed that black people were treated equally and fairly in America. In their eyes, there was apparently no “race problem.” Decades later those numbers are little changed.

    This is not necessarily a function of malice or bias. It is simply the privileged and cultivated ignorance of life that comes with being on the other side of the color line.
    It's muddled to you because you're white (or of a different nationality than American and ignorant for that reason). With privilege comes ignorance. It's all of our responsibilities to attempt to eradicate that ignorance.

    Women need to recognize their privilege in custody battles. In that arena, they have a moral responsibility align themselves with men so that a fair and just custody hearing can occur based on the merits of each individual regardless of their sex. Men need to recognize their privilege by studying earlier decades where something now seen as sexist was "no big deal," so that privileged men can have insight into what seems natural and normal but is actually sexist towards women. And white people need to listen when people of colour say that racism is impacting their lives. etc. etc.

    Everyone's marginalized at some point. But it's not all equal and it's not all as systemic. We need to stop looking for reasons to hold up our schemas of understanding the world and start looking at historical patterns of how natural and normal turned into "WTF that's effed up." So that we can turn what's purportedly natural and normal today into the realm of "WTF," quicker.

    Unfair cultural prejudice is never okay. It's not okay for men to be assumed to be Homer Simpsonized as useless, selfish, and childish just because they're men, it's not okay for the world to screw over people based on their class, or their race, or their gender, or whatever. And we all need to start looking out for each other instead of saying STFU, or, "me me me . . . look how the world's treating me unfairly."
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
    C.S. Lewis

  4. #14
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    *standing ovation*

  5. #15
    Senior Member Munchies's Avatar
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    Yeh the main topic of this thread is totally irrellevant to reality because nobody is going to think on this kind of depth about the situation. It's so subtle, it doesn't even matter.
    1+1=3 OMFG

  6. #16
    Freaking Ratchet Rail Tracer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    @Viridian 's link says it best:



    It's muddled to you because you're white (or of a different nationality than American and ignorant for that reason). With privilege comes ignorance. It's all of our responsibilities to attempt to eradicate that ignorance.
    Nope, not white. In fact, I came from a family that doesn't have that "privilege" that you are speaking of. Having a nationality that is American-[insert ethnicity non-European] faces a different criteria. In fact, it is quite different in terms of African-Americans that have lived in America for generations who mostly/will only identify with America. I identify with both America and my family ethnicity. But I am leaving most of it for a different topic. I'm sensitive to information coming in.

    I identify with both because attacking Zimmernman as well as attacking Treyvon (in either case, without getting enough information before reaching to conclusions) is passively attacking my own nationality even if my nationality isn't related to either of them. Having someone attack Treyvon or Zimmerman without enough information is like an American with "no immigration descent"(parents were born in America) attacking my ethnicity as it is like of my ethnicity blatantly attacking me for being Americanized. If you are disrespecting Zimmerman without enough information, you are disrespecting me. If you are disrespecting Treyvon without getting more information, you are disrespecting me. And that is only one where a person coming from immediate immigrants(especially of non European descent) can understand. Everyone in this case has thus far ridden over that.

    I know about history, and I know where they come from. That is not the issue. The issue at hand is the issue at hand. And how I see it right now, there is ignorance in both camps, but that is because I'm seeing things in a different perspective and that third view isn't being looked at.

  7. #17
    Senior Member Munchies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rail Tracer View Post
    I know about history, and I know where they come from. That is not the issue. The issue at hand is the issue at hand. And how I see it right now, there is ignorance in both camps, but that is because I'm seeing things in a different perspective and that third view isn't being looked at.
    IT IS LIKE THAT FOR EVERY POLITICAL DEBATE AND MEDIA DEBATE
    1+1=3 OMFG

  8. #18
    Senior Member ZPowers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post

    It's muddled to you because you're white (or of a different nationality than American and ignorant for that reason). With privilege comes ignorance. It's all of our responsibilities to attempt to eradicate that ignorance.
    Absolutely, and Trayvon's case getting huge attention is great for this. It bring up race issues (i.e., if the shooter were black and the victim white, how likely is it they would've just let the guy go, and the general consensus seems to be "they clearly wouldn't") that tend to be looked over or ignored most of the time, or at best make for smaller stories (it also brings up issues involving gun control, but that's beside the point here).

    Every murder victim (or, for that matter, kidnapping victim) I can remember by name from my lifetime who was not famous prior to their death or kidnapping has been white. Specifically, a white woman or girl. Jonbenet Ramsay, Natalie Halloway, Meredith Kercher, Laci Peterson, Elizabeth Smart... The rarity with which poor, non-white, elderly, male or unattractive victims spurs real nationwide attention (especially prolonged attention) tells you both how we feel about each of those groups and what kind of premium we put on them.
    Does he want a pillow for his head?

  9. #19
    Freaking Ratchet Rail Tracer's Avatar
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    http://inamerica.blogs.cnn.com/2012/...bels-dont-fit/

    "It's a very interesting dynamic because people here almost have two psyches - their Mexican half and their American half," Mora said.
    Quite a lot of other American-[insert other nationality - non-European] responds similarly to this too.

    Before my outcry, THIS is inexplicably how I feel about Zimmerman. Before you cry racism, you'd better understand where the person is coming from. The notion that you start calling him white is the second you inexplicably started the racism. The moment you start calling a Peruvian person "Mexican," or a Chinese person "Japanese" is the second you push into a territory you don't understand yourselves.

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