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  1. #81
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZPowers View Post
    (especially since it's hard to argue that regardless of what occurred this pretty certainly could have been resolved without anyone's death).
    What facts do you have to substantiate this?
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  2. #82
    Senior Member ZPowers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    What facts do you have to substantiate this?
    Well, if Trayvon didn't actually attack him then it definitely could have been resolved without death.

    If Zimmerman hadn't followed, as he was advised to do, there's no question there'd be no death.

    And finally, even if he followed and Trayvon did attack, Trayvon was (everyone agrees) unarmed, and based on the size and weight was somewhat skinny. Zimmerman was much bigger (he had at least 50 pounds on him). I doesn't seem like a stretch to say he had the ability to subdue him without lethal force (and, quite possibly, by attempting to reason with him: if he did attack it could have been because he was frightened of the guy first staring at him and then following him in the dark and thought Zimmerman was going to attack him).

    I also find it hard to believe that, if Zimmerman had pulled but not fired the gun, Martin wouldn't have complied.

    But, fine, I can't say for certain that Trayvon wouldn't have overpowered him and kicked him to death. But it doesn't seem particularly likely.
    Does he want a pillow for his head?

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacuss View Post
    So it is assault, and therefore true?
    I do care, because he doesn't need to have put the cop in hospital for us to see this guy is liable, at a moment's notice and WITHOUT PROVOCATION to himself, to become violent.
    You are free to jump to any conclusion you want. But to most people, someone who shoved a cop is not as violent as someone who went wild with a baseball bat.

    Here's another example of your downplaying everything that might have been wrong. He was "possibly" drunk when he attacked the cop. His hitting his ex was "minor" and just immature. Now, this is not "that" unusual.
    Like it or not, these are relevant considerations if you are trying to determine if the person is likely to repeat the behavior.

    people are right to question it because, statistically, the race of the victim is the biggest predictor of how much a homicide is investigated and, if prosecuted, what kind of sentence is sought.
    Yes it happens. But you can't attribute it solely to racism.

  4. #84
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    Zimmerman was much bigger (he had at least 50 pounds of adipose tissue on him).
    Fixed that for you.

    In shape 6 foot 17 year old beats out of shape 28 year old. He has a greater reach and (I'm making an assumption here so bear with me) was probably a more experienced pugilist than George.

    If Trayvon attacked, and George's head was slammed on the ground, George wont be found guilty.

    That's pretty much the gist of it.

    Yea not listening to 911's warning to stop was dumb, but one can't establish intent to harm Trayvon merely from the fact that George continued to follow him.

    Did Trayvon act toward Zimmerman in such a way that a reasonable man would fear for his life if placed in Zimmerman's shoes?

    That's it.

    EDIT:
    [YOUTUBE="OWxlZ52O0rI"]The bigger you are the harder you fall[/YOUTUBE]

  5. #85
    Senior Member ZPowers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Latino isn't a race. Neither is white. That's my point. In the U.S. "Latino" and "white" are cultural constructs. That's why in Europe, they don't say "we're white people." Argentine's typically say they are Argentinian. They are different from Mexicans. Many Mexicans may be predominantly Spanish or even French, while Argentines are often Italian.
    No, I think it's absurd racism to say all non-blacks are white.
    These points do seem mildly contradictory, unless your only complaint is with the phrase "white." If we use whatever more acceptable other term to describe this group of people, it seems like you arguing all non-black people (except presumably Asians) are the same race after all.

    A nationality isn't a race, or else every group can use the same. Black isn't a race, Ugandan or Kenyan or South African or Egytian are.
    Does he want a pillow for his head?

  6. #86
    Senior Member ZPowers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Fixed that for you.

    In shape 6 foot 17 year old beats out of shape 28 year old. He has a greater reach and (I'm making an assumption here so bear with me) was probably a more experienced pugilist than George.

    If Trayvon attacked, and George's head was slammed on the ground, George wont be found guilty.

    That's pretty much the gist of it.

    Yea not listening to 911's warning to stop was dumb, but one can't establish intent to harm Trayvon merely from the fact that George continued to follow him.

    Did Trayvon act toward Zimmerman in such a way that a reasonable man would fear for his life if placed in Zimmerman's shoes?
    I think you misunderstand me. If he was attacked, I'm not saying Zimmerman shouldn't be found innocent. The question was "could the situation theoretically be resolved without anyone's death."
    Does he want a pillow for his head?

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZPowers View Post
    These points do seem mildly contradictory, unless your only complaint is with the phrase "white." If we use whatever more acceptable other term to describe this group of people, it seems like you arguing all non-black people (except presumably Asians) are the same race after all.

    A nationality isn't a race, or else every group can use the same. Black isn't a race, Ugandan or Kenyan or South African or Egytian are.
    No, actually, Caucasoid - Negroid - Australoid - Mongoloid are races. Caucasoid includes people from Europe and some parts of Western and Central Asia. Mongoloids include East Asians, some South Asians, and "Native Americans." Australoids are aboriginal native Australians. Negroids are of African descent. Sub-races might include Atlantid or Slavic.

    Black is a cultural construct just like white and Latino.

    Nationality tends to be the cultural identifier for most people (I am Russian, I am Argentine, I am Japanese) but in the U.S. that gets muddy. African-Americans from various nations have become blacks. Europeans (and some people who are actually mixed) identify as white. Latino is a catch-all from Latin America just like white is a catch-all from Europe and black is a catch-all from Africa. Asian can actually include Mongoloids and Caucasoids. Many "white people" in the U.S. are Caucasoid-Mongoloid admixture from the Native tribes who once lived here, but with Latinos it seems to be a higher percentage of Mongoloid admixture in larger segments of the population which has immigrated to the U.S. (but not always).

    My complaint is not just with the word white. You're not even paying attention to what I'm saying, and don't even know what a race is.

  8. #88
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chana View Post


    what group of people, the 5 people who agreed with it? okay, whatever you say.
    Some naive, corn-fed midwestern farmer wrote that definition.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  9. #89
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZPowers View Post
    Well, if Trayvon didn't actually attack him then it definitely could have been resolved without death.

    If Zimmerman hadn't followed, as he was advised to do, there's no question there'd be no death.

    And finally, even if he followed and Trayvon did attack, Trayvon was (everyone agrees) unarmed, and based on the size and weight was somewhat skinny. Zimmerman was much bigger (he had at least 50 pounds on him). I doesn't seem like a stretch to say he had the ability to subdue him without lethal force (and, quite possibly, by attempting to reason with him: if he did attack it could have been because he was frightened of the guy first staring at him and then following him in the dark and thought Zimmerman was going to attack him).

    I also find it hard to believe that, if Zimmerman had pulled but not fired the gun, Martin wouldn't have complied.

    But, fine, I can't say for certain that Trayvon wouldn't have overpowered him and kicked him to death. But it doesn't seem particularly likely.
    That's true - if you tell the part of the story that confirms your hypothesis. But it doesn't explain why Zimmerman feared for his life. I have to assume this because there is no other rational explanation, unless the gun went off by accident. And since it didn't, and since everything is based on scraps of a story heard from news stories, Zimmerman thought one of them was going to die that night, and it wasn't going to be him.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  10. #90
    Senior Member ZPowers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    That's true - if you tell the part of the story that confirms your hypothesis. But it doesn't explain why Zimmerman feared for his life. I have to assume this because there is no other rational explanation, unless the gun went off by accident. And since it didn't, and since everything is based on scraps of a story heard from news stories, Zimmerman thought one of them was going to die that night, and it wasn't going to be him.
    It is of course possible you're right. Neither of us know for sure what happened in that confrontation, and it could have been very legitimate defense or it could have been murder, or something in between.


    Also, since it hasn't been posted, apparently Zimmerman's attorneys have quit and haven't been able to contact him for the past few days: http://www.latimes.com/news/nationwo...,3405665.story
    Does he want a pillow for his head?

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