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  1. #41
    Senior Member ZPowers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacuss View Post
    Hispanic (or rather Latino/a) is ethnicity, not race. There are black ones and white ones and all shades in between.

    Dunno about the race/ethnicity of the people who determined to release (with no charge and no further investigation) a guy with history of assault (including against a cop, no less) and a dead body on his hands without any form of testing of his body, blood or gun, though.
    Someone mentioned to me recently that his release may have been a fault in the Stand Your Ground law? Something about not being able to hold someone if there's not a reasonable amount of evidence that he violated Stand Your Ground? I don't know how accurate that is, I haven't researched it. The law is heavily flawed (IMO), but I'm not sure I can believe this aspect without additional information.
    Does he want a pillow for his head?

  2. #42
    Senior Member ZPowers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacuss View Post
    Hispanic (or rather Latino/a) is ethnicity, not race. There are black ones and white ones and all shades in between.

    Dunno about the race/ethnicity of the people who determined to release (with no charge and no further investigation) a guy with history of assault (including against a cop, no less) and a dead body on his hands without any form of testing of his body, blood or gun, though.
    Someone mentioned to me recently that his release may have been a fault in the Stand Your Ground law? Something about not being able to hold someone if there's not a reasonable amount of evidence that he violated Stand Your Ground? I don't know how accurate that is, I haven't researched it. The law is heavily flawed (IMO), but I'm not sure I can believe this aspect without additional information.
    Does he want a pillow for his head?

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacuss View Post
    Dunno about the race/ethnicity of the people who determined to release (with no charge and no further investigation) a guy with history of assault (including against a cop, no less) and a dead body on his hands without any form of testing of his body, blood or gun, though.
    That is completely untrue. The media is largely to blame for this perception. NBC even doctored the 911 tapes promote their agenda.
    http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...83214H20120403

    Look at the facts.

    Zim's "history of violence" consisted of:
    1. He had a shoving match with a cop when he was 20 and possibly drunk.
    2. His ex and himself were both granted mutual restraining orders.

    There is no evidence to support the claim that Zim was racist. Possibly uttering a racial slur under his breath is not sufficient.

    There is at least one impartial witness who has corroborated Zimmerman's claim that he was being severely beaten by Martin at the moment of the shooting. At this point we don't know who initiated the violence.

    An investigation is certainly appropriate. But the media should not present Zim as a Klansman and Martin as an angelic kid. Sacrificing a scapegoat might feel good, but it accomplishes nothing.

  4. #44
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Sanford has a history of racism. But then that's common to say of any Southern town. Zimmerman has no history of racism. It sounds to me like he said "punks" in the cleaned up version of the 911 call. That same 911 call was doctored by NBC news to make it sound racist, and now they are undergoing an internal investigation of the news division.

    Once the racial motive is taken away, the Trayvon supporters have lost their case against Zimmerman because it was entirely race-based. The race-baiting side has dropped the ball on this one, and it will come back to bite them in the ass. At the very least, they will lose credibility.

    The case now comes down to Stand Your Ground, and if that fails to apply, a self-defense case at the point of contact between Zimmerman and Martin. It could be that they both thought they were defending themselves against a criminal threat. In that case, it's a legal tie and the winner of the confrontation gets to walk.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  5. #45
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    There's more to this interesting case than meets the eye. It is about the marginalizing of those who use reason versus emotion to decide on issues. Those who use reason are the centrists, the emotionalists are more or less on the extremes. Over the course of the last few days I have witnessed many attempts to marginalize those who pay necessary attention to the facts of the Zimmerman case as bigots and racists. The rest have formed a virtual lynch-mob attitude toward Zimmerman. The latter are in the minority, and in my experience, most people see this as a passing news story. But now, interested parties in other countries are watching to see if the US has made any social progress in the last 45 years - all because of a doctored news story aired on NBC.

    If the center, most of whom don't care that much about this case, becomes marginalized via accusations of racism, then that strikes a blow against the productive middle classes in America, which are comprised mostly of white Christians (or at least that's the extremist's perception). This aids in furthering the agenda of those who seek to radicalize America. This involves the use of irrationalistic methods to support social causes, e.g., guns, gangs, and violence, versus reason and debate.

    I haven't made this a racial issue, but certain groups have and that's why it needs to be addressed.

    The only possible reason this case has made national, and now international, headlines 3 weeks after the killing, has to do with supporting the radicalist agenda. It has nothing to do with the killing itself, but it has a lot to do with inciting those blacks and their supporters who feel oppressed by the white majority, and who blame everything on race.

    Not much has been said the last few years about the radical black agenda because most of the focus has been on the post-9/11 radicalization of Muslims in America. But it amounts to the same call for extremist tactics to promote a social agenda, and has been quietly lurking in the background until now.

    P.s., Pointing out that Zimmerman is only half-white doesn't affect the emotional crises of those who are frustrated by this case. It seems that the first news outlet to parade forth a doctored version of the story sets the stage for the rest. Once unreasoning emotion gets started, no amount of reasoning can break through. Years of pent-up frustrations need release somehow. Lacking the racist claim, the Trayvon supporters' agenda boils down to triumphalistic assertions based on thin air, but these apparently make them feel better.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
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  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    There's more to this interesting case than meets the eye. It is about the marginalizing of those who use reason versus emotion to decide on issues. Those who use reason are the centrists, the emotionalists are more or less on the extremes. Over the course of the last few days I have witnessed many attempts to marginalize those who pay necessary attention to the facts of the Zimmerman case as bigots and racists. The rest have formed a virtual lynch-mob attitude toward Zimmerman. The latter are in the minority, and in my experience, most people see this as a passing news story. But now, interested parties in other countries are watching to see if the US has made any social progress in the last 45 years - all because of a doctored news story aired on NBC.

    If the center, most of whom don't care that much about this case, becomes marginalized via accusations of racism, then that strikes a blow against the productive middle classes in America, which are comprised mostly of white Christians (or at least that's the extremist's perception). This aids in furthering the agenda of those who seek to radicalize America. This involves the use of irrationalistic methods to support social causes, e.g., guns, gangs, and violence, versus reason and debate.

    I haven't made this a racial issue, but certain groups have and that's why it needs to be addressed.

    The only possible reason this case has made national, and now international, headlines 3 weeks after the killing, has to do with supporting the radicalist agenda. It has nothing to do with the killing itself, but it has a lot to do with inciting those blacks and their supporters who feel oppressed by the white majority, and who blame everything on race.

    Not much has been said the last few years about the radical black agenda because most of the focus has been on the post-9/11 radicalization of Muslims in America. But it amounts to the same call for extremist tactics to promote a social agenda, and has been quietly lurking in the background until now.

    P.s., Pointing out that Zimmerman is only half-white doesn't affect the emotional crises of those who are frustrated by this case. It seems that the first news outlet to parade forth a doctored version of the story sets the stage for the rest. Once unreasoning emotion gets started, no amount of reasoning can break through. Years of pent-up frustrations need release somehow. Lacking the racist claim, the Trayvon supporters' agenda boils down to triumphalistic assertions based on thin air, but these apparently make them feel better.
    Yes I became more and more center of left, I believe, in the process of the past several years. I was once a naive liberal, and then I got life experience. I learned how crucial personal responsibility is, and how grateful I am that my grandparents' taught me to be a self-sufficient individual. I learned that communism and anarcho-capitalist libertarianism are two sides of the same idealistic, preposterous coin. I have learned the difference between capitalism and corporatism. And most recently I've learned that many people who are knee-jerk "hey that's racist" cryers are some of the most racist, irrational people themselves.

    For some reason, because I learn through experience, I think it helps that I'm working class (in my background) rather than upper-middle class. I think if I was upper-middle class I would have the irrational, sheltered naivete to believe that all non-white people are totally oppressed by whites. However, as someone who has actually lived amongst non-whites and even attended a historically black state university, I don't have these kinds of ...well, kind of smug, condescending illusions. I don't have the same level of knee-jerk guilt.

    However, I'm also very intrigued by how these issues are playing out in Europe, not just my own country. I'm interested in the ill-effects of globalization just as much as I'm interested in other cultures.

    I realized I didn't want to be an extremist one day two years ago, while I was staying in a hostel in Hollywood, and was sitting with my Russian ENTJ friend, and the news was on, and I realized that there were American people on both sides acting like fucking retards. I realized that I can't even have one thing without the other, because the two sides are so divided that you have to accept the whole extremist package on one side or the other.

  7. #47
    wholly charmed Spartacuss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZPowers View Post
    Someone mentioned to me recently that his release may have been a fault in the Stand Your Ground law? Something about not being able to hold someone if there's not a reasonable amount of evidence that he violated Stand Your Ground? I don't know how accurate that is, I haven't researched it. The law is heavily flawed (IMO), but I'm not sure I can believe this aspect without additional information.
    Some stand your ground supporters argue that it's not the law's fault, but cops' eager or lazy misinterpretation of it, based on the possibility he "brought himself to the fray" after following the kid. The next question, even if stand your ground is a legitimate defense, is if he should not assert the defense in a court of law rather than being permitted to skip along his merry way without thorough processing to try to test his word against the evidence, since the boy is dead.
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  8. #48
    wholly charmed Spartacuss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    That is completely untrue. The media is largely to blame for this perception. NBC even doctored the 911 tapes promote their agenda.
    Look at the facts.

    Zim's "history of violence" consisted of:
    1. He had a shoving match with a cop when he was 20 and possibly drunk.
    2. His ex and himself were both granted mutual restraining orders.
    I have looked at the facts, and what I see here are your desperate attempts to defend someone who you don't even know (or do you?), who was troubled and paranoid.

    What, exactly, is completely untrue? Did he or did he not assault a police officer? A tidbit for you: (possibly) drunkenly shoving an officer who is questioning your friend is still assault.
    Further, social workers and domestic violence experts will tell you that when a victim files for a TRO, it is a very common tactic of the men to file one back, by way of defense. his father was a judge, and he was a wannabe cop; I'm sure he knows how the system works. So I would not put much stock in his counterfiling. We don't know.

    Also, assuming that his ex was also abusive and his wasn't just a sham TRO, all that says is that they were BOTH abusive. It doesn't negate his behavior in hitting her.

    What we do know is that this is someone who has this history of troubles with law enforcement, said he was following a person and then shot that unarmed person to death. Even without those factors, I'd think you'd be a little more cautious about just letting someone who just KILLED someone just walk off into the sunset without the thorough forensic testing of clothes, weapon, blood, etc. But, with his additional factors, it is very fishy handling indeed.
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  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacuss View Post
    What, exactly, is completely untrue? Did he or did he not assault a police officer? A tidbit for you: (possibly) drunkenly shoving an officer who is questioning your friend is still assault.
    What he did was as mild as it can get on the assault severity scale. Almost no one would care. But by calling it an assault, the public is left with the false impression that it was much more serious.

    Also, assuming that his ex was also abusive and his wasn't just a sham TRO, all that says is that they were BOTH abusive. It doesn't negate his behavior in hitting her.
    Minor domestic scuffles indicate immaturity on the parts of both participants. It detracts from their character much less than a violent assault involving injury.

    said he was following a person and then shot that unarmed person to death. Even without those factors, I'd think you'd be a little more cautious about just letting someone who just KILLED someone just walk off into the sunset without the thorough forensic testing of clothes, weapon, blood, etc. But, with his additional factors, it is very fishy handling indeed.
    It's not that unusual when compared to the handling of other self defense cases. Arrests are not mandated when it is judged highly probable that no crime was committed.

  10. #50
    wholly charmed Spartacuss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    What he did was as mild as it can get on the assault severity scale. Almost no one would care.
    So it is assault, and therefore true?
    I do care, because he doesn't need to have put the cop in hospital for us to see this guy is liable, at a moment's notice and WITHOUT PROVOCATION to himself, to become violent.


    Minor domestic scuffles indicate immaturity on the parts of both participants.
    Hitting a woman in any way indicates violent and abusive tendencies on his part. I wouldn't call it minor, like you want to; that's what abusers and their apologists usually do (lol @ he's "just immature"). Most don't start with a knock-down drag out. Many end up that way if the woman doesn't take steps to protect herself, e.g. filing for a TRO, which some abusers follow up with a counterfiling. Again, it shows that this man is liable to react violently. He doesn't need to have put her in the hospital just yet.


    It's not that unusual when compared to the handling of other self defense cases.
    Here's another example of your downplaying everything that might have been wrong. He was "possibly" drunk when he attacked the cop. His hitting his ex was "minor" and just immature. Now, this is not "that" unusual.
    Arrests are not mandated when it is judged highly probable that no crime was committed.
    And this is precisely where people are questioning how, given the circumstances and with so little investigation and just his word against the dead person's, this was so quickly and so poorly judged, given the circumstances. His having injuries in no way says he was not the attacker, yet he walked off apparently without a full battery of tests. It stinks, and people are right to question it because, statistically, the race of the victim is the biggest predictor of how much a homicide is investigated and, if prosecuted, what kind of sentence is sought.
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