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  1. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    Also, supposedly, audio forensics reveal that the person screaming for help is not George Zimmerman.
    That carries little weight. His software might also rule out Martin. That analysis is conspicuously missing.

    I don't really know what legality of the case is, but morally, fear of someone should not justify killing him.
    Agreed. But this is not the basis of Zim's claim.

    If you thought your life was in danger, and then shot and killed someone, who turned out to be completely unarmed (with no real other mitigating evidence that your life was in danger), it should be at least as much of a crime as other errors in judgement that lead to someone's death
    Yes, but it is not a given that the statement applies here. Zim's claim is that Martin was on top attacking him. An unarmed attacker can still maim or kill.

    1) Did George Zimmerman actually fear for his life? If so, why did he give chase when the supposed "assailant" was running away?
    He gave chase before the assault took place. He was not in fear for his life until he was attacked.

    2) If Trevon Martin feared for his life, was he within his rights to fight back?
    Fear alone is not reason enough to attack. It must be judged that a reasonable person in his place would have felt that his life was in immediate danger.
    My own biases are that George Zimmerman was not racially motivated, but acted like a vigilante.
    My bias is that he acted like a concerned citizen who was willing to do his part to keep his community safe. There is currently no evidence that he threatened or tried to detain Martin. Following and observing someone is not vigilantism. As Discobiscuit's post indicated, there was a spate of break-ins in the neighborhood at the time. A heightened state alertness was justified.

    There is at least one witness saying he saw Treyvon Martin on top of George Zimmerman. Police reports claim Zimmerman's face was bloodied and he had grass stains on his back. But there have also been reports that Zimmerman had no bruising and that Martin's autopsy doesn't corroborate Zimmerman's story.
    It was Martin's funeral director who made the claim. He had no expertise in forensics.

    Please note that a bar fight that results in a death usually constitutes second degree murder.
    That is not true. Second degree murder has much more stringent requirements.

  2. #162
    Cat Wench ReadingRainbows's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
    Personal conclusions:

    1. Vigilantism sucks
    2. There are people legally carrying guns who better shouldn't
    3. Apparently young black males in hoodies are suspicious
    This is all stuff the American Media is trying to program people to think so they can get ratings and therefore money.

    Quote Originally Posted by yakimadude View Post
    I don`t believe just because you are born american that you SHOULD be able to own a gun. no I think this is a right that should be earned. I believe people teenagers that want to drive, should be forced to undergo classes on physics to better understand the forces at work that would cause their death and harm others and they should see videos on driving of people who have died in crashes.

    gun owners should be forced into the military and serve their country first as well as take physics classes and human anatomy if they are extremely hard up for their gun ownership and also to see first hand what a gun can do when a bullet pierces someones body or kills someone they once considered a friend, but died in front of their eyes. its not a video game.

    America needs learning curves that are high.
    Actually there are requirements to own a gun, and limitations. The problem is that no amount of laws or legit requirements will keep someone who does not follow those guidelines from getting a firearm.
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    St. Stephen took rocks and St. Sebastian took arrows. You only have to take some jerks on an internet forum. Nut up.

  3. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReadingRainbows View Post
    This is all stuff the American Media is trying to program people to think so they can get ratings and therefore money.
    I am European and seldom watch or read American media.

    I was merely expressing my bewilderment at some things that seem to be taken for granted on your side of the Atlantic.
    In my environment
    a) there are no neighborhood watches and no vigilantes or gated communities (never saw any), people just call the cops when neccessary, but there is less fear of crime
    b) much fewer people own, let alone carry, guns and
    c) there are ethnic minorities associated with a higher crime rate but violence is not something people associate with black males (while I am very well aware that they make up for a disproportionate share of both perpetrators AND victims of violence in the USA). There are complex sociological reasons behind that.
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  4. #164

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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    That carries little weight. His software might also rule out Martin. That analysis is conspicuously missing.
    It carries weight but it is true we also need the analysis comparing to Martin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    Agreed. But this is not the basis of Zim's claim.
    I always find it interesting what names people use for the parties involved.

    Some people say "Trayvon" and "Zimmerman", which to me sounds like they are likely subconsciously filling in details in a way that would make Zimmerman the bad guy, while your reference to "Zim" indicates to me that you may be subconsciously doing the opposite.

    Have you tried purposely putting yourself in the shoes of both Zimmerman and Martin while collecting information?

    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    Yes, but it is not a given that the statement applies here. Zim's claim is that Martin was on top attacking him. An unarmed attacker can still maim or kill.
    This is true. But consider both perspectives.

    If someone was at one point chasing you and you ran. Then when you ask "Why are you following me?" the response was "What are you doing here?" and you come up on that same person later. Do you think you may be frightened enough to get physical just long enough to make sure you can get away?

    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    He gave chase before the assault took place. He was not in fear for his life until he was attacked.
    He gave chase even after the professionals asked him not to do that. Murky situations like the one that came up is one of the reasons we want professionals to do this sort of thing. A "concerned citizen" doing anything more than observing and reporting is being a vigilante.

    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    Fear alone is not reason enough to attack. It must be judged that a reasonable person in his place would have felt that his life was in immediate danger.
    You see the pattern of escalation, right? ...
    1) One person chases someone who looks suspicious to him despite warnings not to.
    2) The chased person decides to fight instead of continuing to flee
    3) The original chaser, loosing the last altercation, uses a firearm to kill the person who decided to fight him

    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    My bias is that he acted like a concerned citizen who was willing to do his part to keep his community safe. There is currently no evidence that he threatened or tried to detain Martin. Following and observing someone is not vigilantism. As Discobiscuit's post indicated, there was a spate of break-ins in the neighborhood at the time. A heightened state alertness was justified.
    I know what it is like to have a spate of break-ins in the neighborhood. Like I said, I have done my part in observing and reporting.

    Following someone, especially chasing someone after being asked not to by the police IS vigilantism.

    Someone ended up dead, there were probably many errors in judgement made by both parties.

    The fact that he had followed others before without someone ending up dead doesn't make this decision right.

    You can't say "I have been speeding 120 MPH many times before without an accident, it was the moron who didn't signal who is at fault for me killing him."

    I hope neither you nor DiscoBiscuit would ever make the types of decisions Zimmerman did.

    I am using the word vigilante in the broad sense of a self-appointed doer of justice.

    I understand the frustration of not wanting more things stolen, and not wanting things vandalized. But it does not justify me taking law enforcement into my own hands.

    Following, let alone chasing, someone with a firearm on you without having the training or authority to make proper decisions in situations that may come up is not just stupid, it is wrong. It is a moral responsibility, if you will be going into life-or-death situations, to be properly prepared.

    This doesn't just mean do you know how to fire a gun, but are you trained to identify yourself properly at first encounter, are your trained to de-escalate a situation instead of escalating it, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    It was Martin's funeral director who made the claim. He had no expertise in forensics.
    Thanks for clarifying. It did seem unlikely that they would release the autopsy. But a funeral director would at least have some experience with how bruises look after death.

    But the main reasons I think Zimmerman was exaggerating is because of the pictures released, and the variations in details of Zimmerman's version given by police, father, and brother.

    And the photo:
    http://www.wftv.com/photo/news/local...mmerman/pSGsK/

    I've had worse bleeds than that from minor cuts on the head (head wounds, in general, bleed like crazy).

    and videos.
    http://abcnews.go.com/WN/trayvon-mar...7#.T5ZOw6sV0-u

    Also, I find it really odd that the eye-witness "John" told Zimmerman to "stop". What was that about? Perhaps he meant he was talking to Martin, but that sounded weird.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTZ3zsZBtEM
    [YOUTUBE="jTZ3zsZBtEM"]John[/YOUTUBE]

    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    That is not true. Second degree murder has much more stringent requirements.
    I think you are exaggerating what the requirements are based of the wording ("depraved mind", "disregard for life", etc.)

    http://www.wgmorris.com/Articles/Its...cide-101.shtml

    A typical scenario is a bar fight. Two men are at a bar. One insults the other and a fight ensues. At some point, one of the men has clearly won the fight and could end the conflict by walking away. Instead of walking away, he beats the other man into unconsciousness. The unconscious man never wakes up. The crime is second degree murder.
    We will have to see as more comes out.

    Taking Zimmerman's point-of-view:
    I don't want to live somewhere where punks are just allowed to get away with stealing things. I want them caught and but in jail.

    Taking Martin's point-of-view:
    But I certainly don't want to live someplace where if someone frightening was chasing/following me, and I shove and even take a couple of punches at him, that he can shoot and kill me and claim self-defense.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
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    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  5. #165

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    Quote Originally Posted by ReadingRainbows View Post
    This is all stuff the American Media is trying to program people to think so they can get ratings and therefore money.
    Not all of it. Vigilantes do suck. There are people legally carrying guns who shouldn't.

    Frankly, I don't think race, or hoodies have anything to do with this case.

    Quote Originally Posted by ReadingRainbows View Post
    Actually there are requirements to own a gun, and limitations. The problem is that no amount of laws or legit requirements will keep someone who does not follow those guidelines from getting a firearm.
    Yeah, this is always a tough one for me. Because a tyrannical government would surely try to make it so that nobody who would resist would have guns. For me, that is the basis for the 2nd Amendment.

    Still, it seems like guns tend to end up in the hands of people who are generally ill prepared to carry the moral responsibility that comes along with it.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  6. #166
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    Following, let alone chasing, someone with a firearm on you without having the training or authority to make proper decisions in situations that may come up is not just stupid, it is wrong. It is a moral responsibility, if you will be going into life-or-death situations, to be properly prepared.

    This doesn't just mean do you know how to fire a gun, but are you trained to identify yourself properly at first encounter, are your trained to de-escalate a situation instead of escalating it, etc.
    Any CC course worth it's salt will pound into the trainee's head that if it's possible, evading a situation is always preferable. I know the CC course I went to did so.

    I don't think CCer's should be required to ID themselves as such, because they aren't acting in any legal capacity, but merely defending themselves.

    I am using the word vigilante in the broad sense of a self-appointed doer of justice.
    I understand the problems vigilantism poses, I just worry about anything that would limit the ability of an individual to defend themselves.

    The police are (almost) never there when the crime is being committed, they show up later to clean up the mess.

    I don't want my body to be part of that mess.

    Following someone, especially chasing someone after being asked not to by the police IS vigilantism.
    I'm not certain I agree.

    It's certainly not an approved action for neighborhood watch folks, but it is in an of itself a harmless act.

    It should certainly be discouraged, but I don't think its a punishable offense.

    I really don't have a dog in this fight, except that I'm wary of concealed carry being blamed for the mistakes of an individual.

  7. #167
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    It's certainly not an approved action for neighborhood watch folks, but it is in an of itself a harmless act.
    I can't agree with this. Following/chasing someone can trigger their flight/fight instinct if they notice you. I'm not saying that following someone should be illegal, but to say that it is harmless seems ridiculous to me. What if, while running from Zimmerman, Martin was hit by a car and killed? Would you say what Zimmerman did was harmless there, too?
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  8. #168
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    trigger their flight/fight instinct if they notice you.
    The triggered response is a separate action belonging to the one being followed.

    What if, while running from Zimmerman, Martin was hit by a car and killed? Would you say what Zimmerman did was harmless there, too?
    Yea I would.

  9. #169
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    The triggered response is a separate action belonging to the one being followed.
    No, it's not. It's a textbook example of causality.

    Yea I would.
    And if Zimmerman had been following a woman (who may have been thinking he's a rapist) and she was killed while running from him, that's perfectly okay with you too?
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  10. #170
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    No, it's not. It's an example of causality.
    If your contention is that the fight or flight response is of a subconscious nature that divests the responding party of ownership of the action, then I heartily disagree.

    This seems to be another impasse.

    And if Zimmerman had been following a woman (who may have been thinking he's a rapist) and she was killed while running from him, that's perfectly okay with you too?
    Is it ok with me... no a woman is dead and that sucks.

    But is Zimmerman guilty of murder... no.

    The nebulous nature of following is the problem.

    What about where someone thought they were being followed?

    Making following criminal would open the floodgates of judicial waste. Can you imagine the number of claims against followers where the follower was just taking a similar route?

    No malicious intent can be discerned from just following for a short period of time.

    If you follow someone for several blocks, or for like 15 minutes, I would change the calculation, but without more than just "someone started following me" I don't see criminal liability.

    EDIT - before you comment, I don't think Zim's actions meet the threshold of criminal following I mentioned above.

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