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  1. #151
    Temporal Mechanic. Lexicon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phobik View Post
    Common-sense is expect at all times.
    Too bad that's not more commonly present.
    03/23 06:06:58 EcK: lex
    03/23 06:06:59 EcK: lex
    03/23 06:21:34 Nancynobullets: LEXXX *sacrifices a first born*
    03/23 06:21:53 Nancynobullets: We summon yooouuu
    03/23 06:29:07 Lexicon: I was sleeping!



    04/25 04:20:35 Patches: Don't listen to lex. She wants to birth a litter of kittens. She doesnt get to decide whats creepy

    02/16 23:49:38 ygolo: Lex is afk
    02/16 23:49:45 Cimarron: she's doing drugs with Jack

    03/05 19:27:41 Time: You can't make chat morbid. Lex does it naturally.

  2. #152
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    [YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=artWqzR121k&feature=g-all-c&context=G2e6d31bFAAAAAAAAAAA"]k[/YOUTUBE]
    "I'm not in this world to live up to your expectations and you're not in this world to live up to mine. "
    -Bruce Lee

  3. #153
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    You seem to think that the right to concealed carry plays a huge role in this case.

    Could you go into your thoughts on this?
    I'm sure you've heard the saying, with power comes responsibility. Zimmerman's choice to arm himself was an implicit acceptance of that greater responsibility. But his conduct was a betrayal of that responsibility. I guess you could say my feelings toward Zimmerman are similar to the feelings I have for dirty cops and corrupt politicians.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  4. #154
    Superwoman Red Herring's Avatar
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    Personal conclusions:

    1. Vigilantism sucks
    2. There are people legally carrying guns who better shouldn't
    3. Apparently young black males in hoodies are suspicious
    The good life is one inspired by love and guided by knowledge. Neither love without knowledge, nor knowledge without love can produce a good life. - Bertrand Russell
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  5. #155
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    The truth that is being concealed here is that a very large number of American black men are shot to death every year by other American black men.

  6. #156
    ... Tyrinth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    The truth that is being concealed here is that a very large number of American black men are shot to death every year by other American black men.
    I'm not sure it's being concealed so much as overlooked, Victor. I don't think people think that is relevant, even though it is doubtful that this case would have received as much attention as it has had the race issue not come up. Although that is just guesswork on my part...
    ...

  7. #157
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    [YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6albpebjvQ"][/YOUTUBE]

    in response to the black people killing black people comment. what those cops are doing, is much worse. they are suppose to be able to be trusted to serve and protect, not incriminate innocent individuals.
    "I'm not in this world to live up to your expectations and you're not in this world to live up to mine. "
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  8. #158
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    I don`t believe just because you are born american that you SHOULD be able to own a gun. no I think this is a right that should be earned. I believe people teenagers that want to drive, should be forced to undergo classes on physics to better understand the forces at work that would cause their death and harm others and they should see videos on driving of people who have died in crashes.

    gun owners should be forced into the military and serve their country first as well as take physics classes and human anatomy if they are extremely hard up for their gun ownership and also to see first hand what a gun can do when a bullet pierces someones body or kills someone they once considered a friend, but died in front of their eyes. its not a video game.

    America needs learning curves that are high.
    "I'm not in this world to live up to your expectations and you're not in this world to live up to mine. "
    -Bruce Lee

  9. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by yakimadude View Post
    I don`t believe just because you are born american that you SHOULD be able to own a gun. no I think this is a right that should be earned. I believe people teenagers that want to drive, should be forced to undergo classes on physics to better understand the forces at work that would cause their death and harm others and they should see videos on driving of people who have died in crashes.

    gun owners should be forced into the military and serve their country first as well as take physics classes and human anatomy if they are extremely hard up for their gun ownership and also to see first hand what a gun can do when a bullet pierces someones body or kills someone they once considered a friend, but died in front of their eyes. its not a video game.

    America needs learning curves that are high.
    I don't even know where to begin here.

    None of these ideas are even remotely feasible.

    I was going to just tear your post apart in my most dickish fashion, but I don't think I will.

    Maybe the whole 2nd amendment gun ownership in America needs it's own thread, because that seems to be one of the biggest issues underlying the disagreements in this thread.

  10. #160

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    Even after all this time, I am not able to get a good handle on the facts.

    I found two you tube videos that seem fairly unedited. They could be very edited. I am no expert, but I think the second one just cut out info that would personally identify/locate the caller.

    [YOUTUBE="zj7qEcD8R-8"]Zimmerman 911 Call[/YOUTUBE]

    [YOUTUBE="nCHOfDXJLqI"]Neighbor 911 Call[/YOUTUBE]

    Also, supposedly, audio forensics reveal that the person screaming for help is not George Zimmerman.

    http://www.mediaite.com/tv/audio-for...ming-for-help/

    I don't really know what legality of the case is, but morally, fear of someone should not justify killing him.

    If you thought your life was in danger, and then shot and killed someone, who turned out to be completely unarmed (with no real other mitigating evidence that your life was in danger), it should be at least as much of a crime as other errors in judgement that lead to someone's death (like a manslaughter in DUI cases or the selling of drugs--or I guess, in this case, aggravated manslaughter of a child).

    But if it was Trevon Martin who was actually screaming for help before he was shot, then it is looking like murder.

    There is even more gory detail here:
    http://i.imgur.com/G9zy5.jpg
    which has one analysis here:
    http://viewfromll2.com/2012/04/05/mi...martins-death/
    and another one here:
    http://www.wagist.com/2012/dan-lineh...dees-testimony

    They update it with info from time to time.

    It is true that we "fill in the blanks" with our own assumptions about what happened. But if we can take the 911 calls, and this forensic analysis at face value:
    1) Treyvon Martin was dead at the end.
    2) George Zimmerman made a 911 call reporting suspicious activity
    3) Trevon Martin started running, after looking all around and finally at George Zimmerman
    4) George Zimmerman chased Trevon Martin even after the cops told him that they "don't need him to do that"
    5) A neighbor made a 911 call reporting she could hear yelling, and it seemed like someone was yelling for help.
    6) At least one audio forensics expert believes it was not George Zimmerman yelling for help.

    From this, we can ask:
    1) Did George Zimmerman actually fear for his life? If so, why did he give chase when the supposed "assailant" was running away?
    2) If Trevon Martin feared for his life, was he within his rights to fight back?
    3) Who initiated the altercation?

    My own biases are that George Zimmerman was not racially motivated, but acted like a vigilante. Those actions were at the least errors in judgment that lead to a child's death (whatever you may think of said child). As such, I think he should at least serve the time for manslaughter of a child (which I believe is 30 years in Florida).

    It may or may not be true that Treyvon Martin, double-backed to impress his girlfriend. It may be true that both parties went in to the final altercation looking for trouble. But in either case, it seems Zimmerman did at least receive a head wound (http://www.wftv.com/photo/news/local...mmerman/pSGsK/) Head wounds bleed profusely even when minor, so it is possible Zimmerman played this up to the cops.

    There is at least one witness saying he saw Treyvon Martin on top of George Zimmerman. Police reports claim Zimmerman's face was bloodied and he had grass stains on his back. But there have also been reports that Zimmerman had no bruising and that Martin's autopsy doesn't corroborate Zimmerman's story.

    Please note that a bar fight that results in a death usually constitutes second degree murder. So second degree murder doesn't seem far fetched either.

    Whether or not Martin was a drug-dealer, even if Zimmerman was losing the fight when Martin was shot, I am having a hard time seeing this as "self-defense".

    At best, Zimmerman was a vigilante who got himself in a lot of physical trouble, and thought he could justify killing someone to get out of it as "self-defense."

    -----

    Unless you've been on the both sides of this situation, both finding someone suspicious that you wanted taken care of, and also being put in a situation where you are the suspicious person, I think you will fall naturally towards making assumptions for one side or the other.

    My upstairs neighbor is part of the neighborhood watch and we are on good terms. I have reported suspicious activity to both the apartment security and to the police. I know what it feels like to have "punks" in the neighborhood you want taken care of. There was a string of vandalism and theft at my condos not too long ago.

    But I have also been on the other side.

    One time, when I got home after a long day at work and picking up groceries, my upstairs neighbor came out and asked me in an irritated voice, why I was looking in [her] cars?

    I was flabbergasted, and I tried to say I wasn't, I was just getting groceries out of mine. Then she got angry, went inside, and slammed the door.

    Minutes later I get a phone call from her saying she thought a homeless person was looking inside our cars. I told her, no, that was me. I found out that she didn't have her glasses that night.

    Also, another time, I was looking for a motel room in Reno (I had found out about this chess tournament where grandmasters were going to play the night before and decided to drive there on a whim to watch).

    I pulled in to one of the first ones along the road where the tournament was, park, and started walking around looking for an office. Then all of a sudden I hear an angry voice yelling "you don't belong here".

    I turn around, and there is this guy without his shirt on glaring angrily at me. I look at him sort of puzzled--I was thinking "what do you mean, I don't belong here?" Then he yells at me "Leave, now!" and he make a kind of aggressive body movement towards me, like, if I didn't leave, we were going to fight or something.

    This almost made me laugh (and I may have visibly smiled). The reason is, that although I am not a large man, this guy was comically small. Not a midget, but very short(maybe 4'10") and very skinny.

    Then I try to tell him, "I was just looking for the office". But before I can finish he goes, "Did you not hear me, I told you to leave!" and makes another aggressive motion (again, I almost laugh).

    I am also at this point rather irritated, since I was just looking for a room. I remember thinking, "This guy's such an ass, I'll just ignore him and find the office." That's when I noticed he had a side arm. So I put up my hands and say, "OK, OK, I'm leaving."

    As I walk back to my car, I overhear him telling someone, "These assholes...."

    I have no idea what that motel's history was. Maybe it was one of those long-term stay ones, maybe they had a lot of break ins, maybe even by people of color, and maybe this guy was even the equivalent of neighborhood watch there. But I think what that guy did was wrong (not just stupid, wrong).

    Had I not spotted the guy's gun, it is certainly possible there may have been a fight, and it is certainly possible that guy would have ended up on the bottom with a head wound. But if he had shot and killed me, "self-defense" hardly seems justified.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

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