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  1. #141
    Temporal Mechanic. Lexicon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phobik View Post
    Where the guards allowed to carry/use firearms at all in the scope of their job/as a civilian/are the two mutually exclusive or not?
    Not at all. If I owned a weapon, I would need to leave it at home while on duty. I was armed with a flashlight [not to strike people with], nextel phone, and notepad. Following people after they took off running was not allowed, as it placed us, &/or the person, in potential danger that could be prevented. Often, security guards will give chase anyway, but it's not recommended, and that tends to be the widely accepted rule in this, at times, overly litigious country.

    Because neighborhood watch isn't a legit business with the aforementioned rules, Zimmerman was able to carry & discharge his weapon in a situation where a hired guard could not.
    03/23 06:06:58 EcK: lex
    03/23 06:06:59 EcK: lex
    03/23 06:21:34 Nancynobullets: LEXXX *sacrifices a first born*
    03/23 06:21:53 Nancynobullets: We summon yooouuu
    03/23 06:29:07 Lexicon: I was sleeping!



    04/25 04:20:35 Patches: Don't listen to lex. She wants to birth a litter of kittens. She doesnt get to decide whats creepy

    02/16 23:49:38 ygolo: Lex is afk
    02/16 23:49:45 Cimarron: she's doing drugs with Jack

    03/05 19:27:41 Time: You can't make chat morbid. Lex does it naturally.

  2. #142
    FRACTALICIOUS phobik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lexicon View Post
    Not at all. If I owned a weapon, I would need to leave it at home while on duty. I was armed with a flashlight [not to strike people with], nextel phone, and notepad. Following people after they took off running was not allowed, as it placed us, &/or the person, in potential danger that could be prevented. Often, security guards will give chase anyway, but it's not recommended, and that tends to be the widely accepted rule in this, at times, overly litigious country.

    Because neighborhood watch isn't a legit business with the aforementioned rules, Zimmerman was able to carry & discharge his weapon in a situation where a hired guard could not.
    It's kind of ironic, how being on a [civilian I take it] guard job, and potentially subject to an increased level of threat, one'd get less rights than a civilian off duty (?) /work.

    I suppose this was due to contractual reasons, rather than a requirement by law.
    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
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    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.

  3. #143
    Temporal Mechanic. Lexicon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phobik View Post
    It's kind of ironic, how being on a [civilian I take it] guard job, and potentially subject to an increased level of threat, one'd get less rights than a civilian off duty (?) /work.
    That's because the job of a simple security guard is to observe and report. It's the job/authority of the police dept to chase those people and detain them. It's stupid to follow a stranger around, especially one who's actively running away- his autonomic nervous system's likely engaging his natural fight or flight response- for reasons well illustrated in this unfortunate scenario.
    03/23 06:06:58 EcK: lex
    03/23 06:06:59 EcK: lex
    03/23 06:21:34 Nancynobullets: LEXXX *sacrifices a first born*
    03/23 06:21:53 Nancynobullets: We summon yooouuu
    03/23 06:29:07 Lexicon: I was sleeping!



    04/25 04:20:35 Patches: Don't listen to lex. She wants to birth a litter of kittens. She doesnt get to decide whats creepy

    02/16 23:49:38 ygolo: Lex is afk
    02/16 23:49:45 Cimarron: she's doing drugs with Jack

    03/05 19:27:41 Time: You can't make chat morbid. Lex does it naturally.

  4. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    How can you disagree with me when I did not state any opinions on the matter?
    Forgive me...

    You're post lead me to assume that was your opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    When I think Neighborhood watch, I think about people observing and reporting what they see to the authorities, but leaving the actual pursuit and arrest to those with proper training and authority. That's not what Zimmerman did. On top of that, he was armed.
    I certainly believe it would have been smarter for Zimmerman to just call the police.

    Well he did call the proper authorities, he just took a more active role in the situation than was smart.

    But his decision to follow Martin is pretty much a grey area as far as right and wrong are concerned.

    There had been a rash of burglaries in that gated community prior to this incident (read the daily beast article I posted above for more info), and I think that context helps to explain the decision to follow Martin.

    Zimmerman definitely shouldn't have gotten out of his car though. That was real stupid.

    On the whole whether it's ok to follow someone issue, I think that's kind of a case by case basis as far as the personal justification is concerned.

    For instance if I was a neighborhood watch guy, and the threat from the suspicious individual seemed to be clear, present, and pressing(think predator walking towards a playground or a group of youths who have been vandalizing the neighborhood and are liable to be able to do so again before the cops showed up) you can bet your ass I'm not gonna leave and wait for the cops to show.

    Clearly that's not what was going on here, but I can see good reason to allow neighborhood watch folks to follow in certain circumstances.

    Zimmerman could follow Martin forever and not be able to determine whether or not he's a threat. Being a member of the neighborhood watch, alone, is meaningless. If the guy was a retired police officer my opinion would be different. But he's not. He's an untrained buffoon.
    Well he has a clear history of trying to stay on top of petty crime in the area (46 phone calls). Which leads me to believe that he probably had some experience with assessing threats, but was also likely kind of paranoid.

    I don't see how what your saying here moves the discussion along besides establishing that Zimmerman isn't the brightest bulb.

    I'll concede that Zimmerman choosing to follow Martin was not an approved course of action for a neighborhood watch participant. But I don't think that the following itself is a damning action.

    Dumb? yes.

    But Mal in se (wrong in and of itself)? I'm not sure and would think this is a grey area.

    I don't agree with this for the simple fact that Zimmerman was armed.
    Trayvon had no idea Zimmerman was armed, if he had, he certainly would not have initiated a physical altercation.

    How can something that Treyvon was unaware of provoke him?

    I don't agree. Being head of the neighborhood watch does not mean you're qualified to assess threats any more than being elected coroner means you're qualified to perform autopsies. It's a meaningless title.
    Regardless of qualifications, he certainly had some experience with evaluating threats.

    There may be no initial qualifications (aside from neighborhood residency) but being involved in the neighborhood watch over a period of time certainly would impart some experience.

    I agree, except that he was armed. Being armed gave this guy the confidence to act on his stupidity.
    I'm beginning to see a trend here.

    More to the point there is no way to know that conclusively.

    Yes, but neighborhood watch doesn't involve arming yourself, following people you deem to be threats. Otherwise it would be called neighborhood police.
    Fair enough.

    I suspect Zimmerman was a regular CC'er (concealed carrier) however, was he supposed to not carry simply because he was going out to do neighborhood watch stuff?

    At the moment of the altercation, maybe. Maybe not.
    Maybe not? I think in the vast majority of cases individuals can correctly intuit whether or not their life is in danger.

    But before the altercation, no. He thought hoodie = criminal.
    Like I said earlier, there's no way you can know that, unless you're Professor X.

    Neighborhood watch is not a detective organization.
    No, but the purpose is crime prevention. And given the rash of burglaries, I can only fault him so much for following Martin in his car.

    Getting out of it was dumb as fuck though.

    I don't, as long as they're NOT ARMED.
    The trend continues.

    I'll answer this later. I don't have time now.
    Fair enough.

    I figured I would address this in one place rather than try to handle it every where you brought it up.

    You seem to think that the right to concealed carry plays a huge role in this case.

    Could you go into your thoughts on this?

  5. #145
    FRACTALICIOUS phobik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lexicon View Post
    That's because the job of a simple security guard is to observe and report. It's the job/authority of the police dept to chase those people and detain them.
    Yeah, that's how it works over here, albeit, even the police has strict rules of when they can use firearms. The scales begin to tip when law is made that allows the average citizen equal rights/powers.
    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
    ~ Elbert Hubbard

    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.

  6. #146
    Temporal Mechanic. Lexicon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phobik View Post
    Yeah, that's how it works over here, albeit, even the police has strict rules of when they can use firearms. The scales begin to tip when law is made that allows the average citizen equal rights/powers.
    The average citizen doesn't have equal power as a police officer, though they do have the right to use deadly force if there's substantial proof their life was put in immediate danger. That, in of itself, isn't wrong, I think. But Zimmerman's overzealous nature, and unwarranted pursuit, directly led to that conflict and the death of a minor.
    03/23 06:06:58 EcK: lex
    03/23 06:06:59 EcK: lex
    03/23 06:21:34 Nancynobullets: LEXXX *sacrifices a first born*
    03/23 06:21:53 Nancynobullets: We summon yooouuu
    03/23 06:29:07 Lexicon: I was sleeping!



    04/25 04:20:35 Patches: Don't listen to lex. She wants to birth a litter of kittens. She doesnt get to decide whats creepy

    02/16 23:49:38 ygolo: Lex is afk
    02/16 23:49:45 Cimarron: she's doing drugs with Jack

    03/05 19:27:41 Time: You can't make chat morbid. Lex does it naturally.

  7. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lexicon View Post
    That sign says people REPORT suspicious activity. Last time I checked, walking back from a store with candy and iced tea, with my hood up, in weather with water precipitation, is not suspicious.
    If you had read the daily beast article I posted, you would have a little context for Zimmerman's suspicion.

    Here's a quote from it:
    In attempting to understand Zimmerman’s actions, much attention has been called to the fact that Martin was black, and to the frequency with which Zimmerman, who is half-white and half-Hispanic, called police in the years leading up to the shooting. Twin Lakes is almost 50 percent white, with Hispanic and African-American populations of about 20 percent each.

    Conversations with several residents, however, suggest that Zimmerman’s calls reflect a wider feeling of concern and distrust in the community. For years, Twin Lakes residents had been on edge—demonstrated by their decision last September to start a neighborhood-watch organization, which was initiated by Zimmerman himself. The burglary of Olivia Bertalan’s home was just one of at least eight reported over the previous 14 months—several of which, neighbors said, involved young black men. On Feb. 26, the odds were stacked against Martin: he was a young black man in a neighborhood that was feeling besieged by crime and blaming it—fairly or not—on people who looked like him.

    Three weeks before Martin’s death another Twin Lakes resident arrived home to discover a kitchen window open and a laptop and gold necklaces missing. Two witnesses said they saw a young black man standing nearby, but they did not see the man break into the home, according to a police report. One witness said he believed it was the same man who had stolen his bike. The next day officers responding to a call confronted three black men and one white man on bikes near the neighborhood. The same witnesses identified one of the men as the same man they saw near the burglarized home. The officers found the laptop in the man's backpack.
    He had no way of knowing that guy was part of neighborhood watch. It was Zimmerman's responsibility, imo, to identify himself as such, when the boy asked why he was being followed. That obviously did not transpire.
    I don't think it's been shown that Martin said anything to Zimmerman prior to the physical altercation.

    I should note, that I've actually worked as a security guard, in the past, & though I never worked in a gated community, a couple did use the agency I worked for, & it was not actually listed on any of the information about the communities. Also, there were no guard houses or main posts, within either of them. The security officers had to hang out in their vehicle at the end of certain streets, making rounds every few hours and using the main office restroom. It actually wasn't even in the job description as a uniformed guard to actively pursue someone who is acting suspicious. The job was strictly to observe and report.
    Yes I used to live in a complex with a guard but no house. (as an aside what a thankless position that is)

    I can tell you this much though, one of the first things the site agent talked about was having a guard there. And that info was plastered all over the ad material for the complex.

    Safety is one of the biggest selling points of any home, neighborhood, or community. I'm a real estate agent and it's always something that comes up in the process of looking for a place.

    All the info I could find online for The Retreat at Twin Lakes in Sanford said nothing about a guard.

  8. #148
    FRACTALICIOUS phobik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lexicon View Post
    The average citizen doesn't have equal power as a police officer, though they do have the right to use deadly force if there's substantial proof their life was put in immediate danger. That, in of itself, isn't wrong, I think. But Zimmerman's overzealous nature, and unwarranted pursuit, directly led to that conflict and the death of a minor.
    Yeah, I meant the power to use firearms/lethal force.

    For me, as an outsider, this just adds to the notion that overzealous nature has spread beyond common-sense, to paranoid, nation-wide levels. It's ingrained in the culture and fostering ripples in all directions. It doesn't strike me as being the way to evolve beyond Type 0, and also unlikely to change in the near future.
    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
    ~ Elbert Hubbard

    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.

  9. #149
    Temporal Mechanic. Lexicon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phobik View Post
    Yeah, I meant the power to use firearms/lethal force.
    So in Portugal, if someone's actively trying to KILL you, it is illegal to defend yourself until the threat has diminished - even if it takes the assailant's death to achieve that? I'm not sure about your gun laws, but what about having to bash an assailant repeatedly with a blunt object to prevent him from stabbing you with a knife? If you did that, and he dropped to the ground, unconscious-- and you stopped striking right then- and he later died as a result of that blow- would you be held legally responsible for his death?

    The use of lethal force was excessive and not proportionate to the situation of the OP, unless there's some clear proof Martin attempted to steal Zimmerman's gun, & shoot him.
    03/23 06:06:58 EcK: lex
    03/23 06:06:59 EcK: lex
    03/23 06:21:34 Nancynobullets: LEXXX *sacrifices a first born*
    03/23 06:21:53 Nancynobullets: We summon yooouuu
    03/23 06:29:07 Lexicon: I was sleeping!



    04/25 04:20:35 Patches: Don't listen to lex. She wants to birth a litter of kittens. She doesnt get to decide whats creepy

    02/16 23:49:38 ygolo: Lex is afk
    02/16 23:49:45 Cimarron: she's doing drugs with Jack

    03/05 19:27:41 Time: You can't make chat morbid. Lex does it naturally.

  10. #150
    FRACTALICIOUS phobik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lexicon View Post
    So in Portugal, if someone's actively trying to KILL you, it is illegal to defend yourself until the threat has diminished - even if it takes the assailant's death to achieve that? I'm not sure about your gun laws, but what about having to bash an assailant repeatedly with a blunt object to prevent him from stabbing you with a knife? If you did that, and he dropped to the ground, unconscious-- and you stopped striking right then- and he later died as a result of that blow- would you be held legally responsible for his death?

    The use of lethal force was excessive and not proportionate to the situation of the OP, unless there's some clear proof Martin attempted to steal Zimmerman's gun, & shoot him.
    The law states the use of adequate force to the threat, taking into account body size between actors, in physical contact, e.g. an equally strong person being punched is expected to retaliate in equal fashion not use a a gun with lethal force, vs a frail person could use some other means, object, gun, albeit the lethal part would be subjective, as there are no black and white laws to allow that in order to disallow hiding behind it in cases like this one. Common-sense is expect at all times.
    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
    ~ Elbert Hubbard

    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.

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