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  1. #101
    wholly charmed Spartacuss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    It is disingenuous to use word "attack" when you know it was a simple shove.
    WTF. LOL at "just a simple shove." I do know that he came up to a police officer who wasn't even talking to him and attacked him violently.

    Some people learn to control their negative emotions as they mature.
    And many don't. Some eventually land themselves in prison. You have zip, zero, zilch to support that he changed from a violent nut to Gandhi. Moreover, it wasn't long ago that some of these incidents happened, like his getting fired as a security guard for "losing it" with patrons or his getting reported by his neighbors.

    You lack the facts to back up the claim that he's a Dirty Harry wannabe.
    You have got to be kidding. There are many facts supporting the view that he is a nut that you have repeatedly downplayed and invented 101 excuses for. It's pathetic and incredible.

    A few might not like him. But others have a high opinion of him.
    So what if some like him? Ted Bundy even after he was convicted had many fans and got many love letters. Being liked by some does not negate his behavior. The complaining neighbors did not merely dislike him - they reported him for harassing them. Again, many of us have nosy neighbors. Many dislike our neighbors. The FACT (I know you dislike these) remains that his neighbors we so harassed that they sought police intervention for themselves and their guests.

    Look at your own behavior. You selectively reject facts when they disagree with your conclusion.
    Now this is rich! Look at how many excuses you've invented.
    He attacked a cop not even dealing with him? Maybe he was just drunk.
    He hit his girlfriend (repeatedly)? He was just immature.
    He was fired as a security guard for roughing up patrons too much (disturbing parallel)? Ah, that's just from one person.
    He harassed his neighbors to the point they had to call the cops on him? He's just nosy. Other people liked him.
    If George himself hadn't conceded it, you'd be claiming he didn't kill Trayvon, he just grazed him a little with the gunshot.

    Not one of your silly conjectural excuses holds any water or changes the FACT of what happened in each case, yet you of all people want to talk about ignoring facts?

    You provided little support of your points other than to repeat them over and over in an outraged and condescending manner.
    You repeatedly excuse facts, and obviously have very little fondness for them and go to extraordinary lengths to downplay, ignore or trivialize disturbing behavior. Irrationality and willful partiality disgust me.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Hopefully Zimmerman gets convicted of second-degree murder. I'm not really a fan of armed, mentally-unstable people roaming the streets, provoking people so they can kill them.
    Seriously, especially with their apologists out there to make sure they not only get off scot-free, but are also not even properly investigated for killing another human being.
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  2. #102
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nebbykoo View Post
    People have been gathering by the thousands about this, so based on that, I don't think it's being blow out of proportion at all. Clearly a nerve has been touched about race relations in America.
    Yeah, Michael Baisden (a popular black radio talk host) has been pushing the button for days on end. Basically, there seems to be a lot of frustration in the black community over feeling like they are typically ignored when crimes like this occur, so they feel that they have no choice but to blow the horn until someone listens because they're tired of not feeling represented. Many of the callers are very outraged over the incident. It's become a matter of principle at this point -- dedication to actually seeing something happen rather than just rolling over and taking it yet again.

    Considering how events involving blacks typically ARE ignored in the media (for example, we're able to make jokes about how it's best to be white blonde female rather than a black girl if you want to have any chance whatsoever for media coverage involving your disappearance), I can understand why it's becoming a focal point even if maybe for others it doesn't seem as huge a deal.

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    If we keep blaming it on racism, and no positive responsible cultural change is expected, nothing will change.
    I don't think racism should be "blamed" for it, but what sort of "positive responsible cultural change" is expected, and what can be done to implement it? When you ask for it not to be "blamed on racism," you have the luxury of saying, "It's their problem and not mine," and just ignore it, except for these periodic news stories where we can sit around and argue social politics but of course none of this discussion in these private forums has any real impact on changing the culture. Basically the black culture is stuck living it; we're in a position where we can just stick our heads in the sand and say, "let's not blame it on racism," and go our merry way.

    It's not like there aren't black people trying to impact their culture. It's as frustrating to them as it is to anyone else. Most of my coworkers are black now, where I work in Baltimore, and it's painful for them to watch this kind of stuff happening. Many have had to work themselves out of disadvantage. I've heard from at least one of my black friends the same thing as your article addresses -- the culture isn't just a victim of racism but a victim of itself. Yet, how to change it? The problems seems remarkably resilient. And it's still a national problem, not just a black cultural problem. I guess it's easy to separate it from ourselves until we (or someone we love) is inadvertently dragged into it.

    Quote Originally Posted by ZPowers View Post
    It seems to me like the real divide in the country is moving away from race and into economic differences, but I think it's fair to say race is a critical factor in whether, statistically, you have wealth. So I partially disagree with the author of that article. Yes, they are hurting each other and themselves, but at the same time I believe that it is because of the lingering effects of decades and even centuries of racism that they find themselves in such a position in the first place.
    Yes, that tends to be how I see it as well.

    Consider the heritage they came from in this country. I really doubt these issues would exist right now, if not for how this all began. Unfortunately, knowing that that still doesn't help us fix it.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

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  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I don't think racism should be "blamed" for it, but what sort of "positive responsible cultural change" is expected, and what can be done to implement it? When you ask for it not to be "blamed on racism," you have the luxury of saying, "It's their problem and not mine," and just ignore it, except for these periodic news stories where we can sit around and argue social politics but of course none of this discussion in these private forums has any real impact on changing the culture. Basically the black culture is stuck living it; we're in a position where we can just stick our heads in the sand and say, "let's not blame it on racism," and go our merry way.

    It's not like there aren't black people trying to impact their culture. It's as frustrating to them as it is to anyone else. Most of my coworkers are black now, where I work in Baltimore, and it's painful for them to watch this kind of stuff happening. Many have had to work themselves out of disadvantage. I've heard from at least one of my black friends the same thing as your article addresses -- the culture isn't just a victim of racism but a victim of itself. Yet, how to change it? The problems seems remarkably resilient. And it's still a national problem, not just a black cultural problem. I guess it's easy to separate it from ourselves until we (or someone we love) is inadvertently dragged into it.
    The reason I separate myself from it, is that I have literally no power, and frankly no incentive to do anything about it. If the problem involved is institutional and to a certain extent cultural, the only thing I can do is say, "Welp that sucks." and move on with my day.

    I think that ultimately the only people in a position to do anything about this are those in the black community. Life isn't fair. It just isn't. And for the most part we can only control how we act in and react to circumstances in this life.

    Any shift in cultural perceptions have to come from the black community. How is the rest of the country supposed to change its view of black culture, if the black community doesn't first change it's view of itself.

    That's the way of change though, the women's suffrage movement was spearheaded by women. Civil rights was spearheaded by leaders in the African American community. If you want a better lot in life the onus is on you to fight for that positive change.

    It has seemed to me (and this is just my opinion) that the black community has increasingly relied on voicing outrage in the media as it's main tool to try to instigate social change. They've become quite adept at whipping the media into a frenzy, but when it comes to moving the community forward it doesn't move much past that. I would also argue that if the black community was more willing to address issues within that culture, most notably black on black crime and other criminal trends, that the rest of the country might then be more willing to have a meaningful conversation about things like institutional racism.

    On the whole, gang culture, drugs, and black on black crime affect the black community far more than does institutional racism. Until the black community is willing to publicly take more responsibility for these issues (which statistically have a greater impact) as opposed to focusing the occasional publicized inter-race event (like this shooting) while sweeping the problems within the black community under the rug, the calls to action and outrage when events such as this shooting occur will fall on mostly deaf ears outside of the black community.

  4. #104
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    The reason I separate myself from it, is that I have literally no power, and frankly no incentive to do anything about it. If the problem involved is institutional and to a certain extent cultural, the only thing I can do is say, "Welp that sucks." and move on with my day.
    Well, at least you're honest.

    I think that ultimately the only people in a position to do anything about this are those in the black community. Life isn't fair. It just isn't. And for the most part we can only control how we act in and react to circumstances in this life.

    Any shift in cultural perceptions have to come from the black community. How is the rest of the country supposed to change its view of black culture, if the black community doesn't first change it's view of itself.
    I wonder sometimes if you've ever been in a situation that you haven't been able to dig yourself out of despite your best efforts.

    Generally, I agree with you -- I think people are responsible for their own choices and can't rely on being saved by others, but I think the problem is bigger than that. There's a confluence of forces (historical, social, economical) that seem to derail any headway that is made.

    The reality is that it's still "our" problem as a nation. I guess we can each just go and live our own lives in our own sector of society and maybe never need to confront issues facing other demographics in our country, but the problems still impact each other. This definitely takes a toll on the economy, and impacts urban crime statistics, etc.

    It has seemed to me (and this is just my opinion) that the black community has increasingly relied on voicing outrage in the media as it's main tool to try to instigate social change. They've become quite adept at whipping the media into a frenzy, but when it comes to moving the community forward it doesn't move much past that. I would also argue that if the black community was more willing to address issues within that culture, most notably black on black crime and other criminal trends, that the rest of the country might then be more willing to have a meaningful conversation about things like institutional racism.
    So if the situation was reversed and this was a "white person" problem, and you personally had to work to fix it, what specifically WOULD you do? I think that is what I'm challenging here; you're just tossing out these very generalized solutions to "what could be done" on the part of black people. Don't you think there are black people actually doing those things, or trying to? And maybe the reason they are resorting to media coverage is because they are having trouble finding some traction, so those individuals are doing what they can? If you had no real power to change anything, wouldn't media coverage be one of the first, easier things you'd tackle?

    Your criticisms don't seem to look at what the actual possibilities in the situation are and either make allowance for what people are doing or provide any sort of realistic angle by which they can attack their issues. I don't think you, despite your benefits of birth privilege, would have any idea what to do to fix the entire white subculture if it were a white person's problem instead of a black person's, tbh.

    Just to note, the black talk show hosts I hear on the radio are also providing a call to arms to the black community to try to get its act together. They're not expecting outside help to fix everything; they do understand that it takes change from within to help the problems resolve themselves. I just have no idea what radio show hosts can do aside from provide a broad method of communication to a community; they can't really motivate anyone to do anything, nor formulate a "detailed plan." How is changed effected on a personal level? Because that is what this will take. Change in individual people.

    On the whole, gang culture, drugs, and black on black crime affect the black community far more than does institutional racism. Until the black community is willing to publicly take more responsibility for these issues (which statistically have a greater impact) as opposed to focusing the occasional publicized inter-race event (like this shooting) while sweeping the problems within the black community under the rug, the calls to action and outrage when events such as this shooting occur will fall on mostly deaf ears outside of the black community.
    Again, it sounds more that you don't really have any idea whatsoever on how to solve those issues (I sure wouldn't know myself), so it's easier to write it all off as "another person's problem" until you are personally impacted by something from that demographic. Which hopefully will not be something that tragic.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #105
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    I had a huge response written that was probably better than this, but I got logged out and lost it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Well, at least you're honest.
    I wonder sometimes if you've ever been in a situation that you haven't been able to dig yourself out of despite your best efforts.
    I have.

    Hasn't everyone?

    There's a confluence of forces (historical, social, economical) that seem to derail any headway that is made.

    The reality is that it's still "our" problem as a nation. I guess we can each just go and live our own lives in our own sector of society and maybe never need to confront issues facing other demographics in our country, but the problems still impact each other. This definitely takes a toll on the economy, and impacts urban crime statistics, etc.
    I do agree that it is our problem. The problem I have is when the issue is framed in such a way that it goes from being "our" problem to being "my" (read white people's) problem.

    Now I'm willing to take responsibility for the extent to which my uncaring attitude augments racial antogonization in this country.

    What I have a problem with is the tendency by some black leaders to frame the issue in such a way that one would think lynch mobs are roving the countryside.

    So if the situation was reversed and this was a "white person" problem, and you personally had to work to fix it, what specifically WOULD you do?
    First and foremost be the change I wanted to see in the world. Second I would be the best advocate I could for my group. Beyond that, not knowing what the problem is, I have no idea what I would do.

    you're just tossing out these very generalized solutions to "what could be done" on the part of black people. Don't you think there are black people actually doing those things, or trying to?
    I don't think they are... I know they are.

    But it apparently is not enough.

    What bothers me is that the attitude of working for positive social change doesn't have more traction within the black community than it does.

    And maybe the reason they are resorting to media coverage is because they are having trouble finding some traction, so those individuals are doing what they can? If you had no real power to change anything, wouldn't media coverage be one of the first, easier things you'd tackle?
    First and foremost, if they had no real power for change, they would not have access to mainstream media to voice their issues.

    The problem is the creation of a "blacks vs everyone else" dichotomy perpetuated in the national conversation.

    It's like the realization of the goals of the black community are mutually exclusive to the realization of anyone else' goals.

    Your criticisms don't seem to look at what the actual possibilities in the situation are and either make allowance for what people are doing or provide any sort of realistic angle by which they can attack their issues. I don't think you, despite your benefits of birth privilege, would have any idea what to do to fix the entire white subculture if it were a white person's problem instead of a black person's, tbh.
    Vote in every election. Be politically active, write your congressman. Be the best representative of your community that you can. If you are going to have a child, make every effort to try and do so with two parents. Hold your child to a higher standard of academic excellence than the culture will. Make education paramount in parenting and at home. Take every effort to impress upon your child the error of pursuing the cool thing to the detriment of one's education and personal achievement.

    I mean many of my Asian classmates in high school were strait up afraid to bring home anything less than A's. I'm not saying it needs to be taken to that extreme, but its a good example none the less.

    Beyond those maxims, no I don't have any substantive policy ideas.

    Just to note, the black talk show hosts I hear on the radio are also providing a call to arms to the black community to try to get its act together. They're not expecting outside help to fix everything; they do understand that it takes change from within to help the problems resolve themselves. I just have no idea what radio show hosts can do aside from provide a broad method of communication to a community; they can't really motivate anyone to do anything, nor formulate a "detailed plan." How is changed effected on a personal level? Because that is what this will take. Change in individual people.
    Good, but like you said it's not enough if we want change on the individual level.

    It's going to have to start with the family issues in the black community. That's how real change can be achieved (in my opinion).

    How to address family stability problems in the black community however, I have no idea.

    Again, it sounds more that you don't really have any idea whatsoever on how to solve those issues (I sure wouldn't know myself), so it's easier to write it all off as "another person's problem" until you are personally impacted by something from that demographic. Which hopefully will not be something that tragic.
    Besides the maxims mentioned above, I don't have any idea.

    I do know, that as Kanye said:
    Where I'm from the dope boys is the rock stars
    Until the glamorization of criminal activity stops being an accepted cultural practice, we are unlikely to see much change.

    What I'm trying to address here, is that the black community is much more likely to reach a sympathetic ear if they try to come together with the rest of the country to address the issues facing their community. If however, the national conversation on race continues to be framed as a zero sum game with blacks opposed to everyone else, efforts to discuss the issues facing the black community will continue to fall on deaf ears.

    This is the one thing I will lay at the feet of some of the black leadership. Given that they generally control the race debate in the country, or at least are who the MSM looks to decide how to frame that debate, they need to take it upon themselves to try to come together with everyone to find the answers to black problems. Not blame those problems entirely upon current circumstance (or how the past played into that circumstance).
    Edit - that's not fair. I'll strike that sentence.

    To make real progress in the race relations issue, we need to frame the national conversation in a way that addresses the issues posed, gives proportional amounts of causal responsibility for those issues to the proper parties, and most importantly doesn't alienate all those outside of the black community.

  6. #106
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    The first thing I would do is end the drug war and see where that gets us.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacuss View Post
    You have got to be kidding. There are many facts supporting the view that he is a nut that you have repeatedly downplayed and invented 101 excuses for. It's pathetic and incredible.
    Try getting your "facts" from more balanced sources.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Basically the black culture is stuck living it; we're in a position where we can just stick our heads in the sand and say, "let's not blame it on racism," and go our merry way.
    There is no doubt that black people face discrimination and I agree that it is wrong to judge an individual solely by preconceived notions about the group that they belong in. However, isn't the exact thing being done to Z in this case?

  9. #109
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    There is no doubt that black people face discrimination and I agree that it is wrong to judge an individual solely by preconceived notions about the group that they belong in. However, isn't the exact thing being done to Z in this case?
    No
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    No
    Look at the facts from unbiased or opposing sources. There is no evidence to support the claim that he is racist.

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