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  1. #91
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZPowers View Post
    It is of course possible you're right. Neither of us know for sure what happened in that confrontation, and it could have been very legitimate defense or it could have been murder, or something in between.


    Also, since it hasn't been posted, apparently Zimmerman's attorneys have quit and haven't been able to contact him for the past few days: http://www.latimes.com/news/nationwo...,3405665.story
    True, but you can personally contact him at www.therealgeorgezimmerman.com
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by nebbykoo View Post
    That's really interesting. I'm not foot stomping, and I'm sure not screaming. Through the lens of your upbringing, that's what you perceive.
    It doesn't distort the issue in the media. It raises it, and it has been raised by thousands of people around the country. They're not all hysterical. Your lens is distorted.
    What about black on black crime and violence? Please don't change the subject.
    From CNN:

    Violence and race: a two-way street

    (CNN) -- Within the next day or two we could hear from the special prosecutor's office about her decision on whether to charge George Zimmerman.

    Regardless of what she says, chances are a lot of people are not going to be happy with the decision. It's an emotional story with many layers that will likely end with more questions than answers, and more division than unity along racial lines.

    I know when I heard about Trayvon Martin's killing, the story immediately touched my heart because I could see my own 15-year-old son in Trayvon.

    Similarly, when I heard about the apparent racially motivated killing spree in Tulsa, Oklahoma, last week, it angered me because I could see my brothers and uncles in the slain victims.

    But something different happened inside when I saw the video of a white tourist being savagely beaten and stripped by a bunch of black thugs in Baltimore over St. Patrick's Day weekend.

    My heart wasn't touched.

    I didn't get angry.

    Instead, I just became cold.

    I didn't want the individuals involved to be arrested.

    I wanted them thrown in jail for life. I thought what possible good could adults who would do that to another human being bring to society? Some folks can be rehabilitated, but sometimes it's best to just cut our losses. Why bother wasting taxpayers' dollars on a trial over something that simply cannot and should not be defended? As I watched the helpless man being kicked and heard him being laughed at, I just wanted those hoodlums escorted to solitary confinement and the key thrown away.

    As I told you, I became cold.

    Sick even.

    I posted the video on my Facebook wall and soon found myself in a conversation with a buddy of mine, Brian, who I've known since grad school. In my frustration I e-mailed "I hate people."

    Brian immediately hit back: "No you don't. You love people, that is why this upset you so much."

    He was right. I don't hate people. I just hated what happened to that guy, just like I hated what happened to the victims in Tulsa. But what I really hate is how the video is only going to confirm what so many whites think about blacks and the arrests are only going to confirm what so many blacks think about whites.

    That's where much of the focus will inevitably go instead of to what I think is far more important, and that is what blacks think about ourselves. I don't need to tell you what the response from the black community would be if the victim in the Baltimore video was black and the assailants white. But for some reason many blacks puree crimes of this nature through some warped situational ethics filter, which in the end only makes a mockery of the community more than it empowers it.

    For if President Obama had a son, he would look like Trayvon, but he would also look like one of the assailants in that video. That's the uncomfortable truth that the black community must deal with: Racism still hurts us, but not nearly as much as we hurt ourselves.

    The same weekend the man in Baltimore was attacked, in Chicago 10 people were killed and 40 were wounded, including a 6-year-old girl who was shot dead while she was playing on the front porch of her home in the Little Village neighborhood.

    Neighborhoods such as Little Village, and West Englewood, which has a homicide rate five times that of the rest of the city, are mostly black and Latino. Since 2008, nearly 80% of the more than 500 killings of youth in Chicago have occurred in the 22 black and Latino neighborhoods. Those deaths are not coming by the hands of the KKK but by people who look a lot like the ones in that St. Patrick's Day video.

    Or the ones in the video that went viral in February in which a bunch of black thugs attacked a black man as he left a grocery store.

    Or the ones in the video that went viral three years ago in which a bunch of black thugs attacked and killed a 16-year-old honor roll student, who was also black.

    Sadly, I could go on, but I think the picture is clear.

    What isn't as clear is what the black community is going to do about it.

    We know how to come together and fight against injustice when the alleged perpetrators are white. However we're not quite sure how to deal with injustice as a community when the perpetrators look like us -- and that is troubling, because when you look at the statistics, it seems the survival of the black community depends more on figuring that part out than dealing with the George Zimmermans of the world.

  3. #93
    Senior Member ZPowers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Article
    In response to that article: it begs the question why violence is so prevalent in that community. There's two options, from what I see: black people are just generally more antagonistic, violent or criminal than other people, or it's a symptom of another issue. To me, that kind of violence is probably an effect of racism, but the racism of yesteryear, the effects of which linger. Traditionally poverty or lack of economic options or resources leads to criminal behavior, and black people are disproportionately among the economically disadvantaged. Again, two options: they are inherently lazier or less able, or it's because white Americans had a solid couple hundred years head start to climb the social ladder, and now we live in an age where it is increasingly impossible to get any decent job or education without starting out with a fair amount of money.

    It seems to me like the real divide in the country is moving away from race and into economic differences, but I think it's fair to say race is a critical factor in whether, statistically, you have wealth. So I partially disagree with the author of that article. Yes, they are hurting each other and themselves, but at the same time I believe that it is because of the lingering effects of decades and even centuries of racism that they find themselves in such a position in the first place.
    Does he want a pillow for his head?

  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZPowers View Post
    There's two options, from what I see: black people are just generally more antagonistic, violent or criminal than other people, or it's a symptom of another issue.
    It's not that simple. Clearly I'm not going to argue that Black people are naturally more antagonistic, nor do I think that they are.

    I merely think that they make decisions that lead to criminal behavior more frequently than those in other groups.

    Then you must ask to what extent are these decisions attributable to a culture reflective of past oppression.

    Now think about this. When a child comes home from school and says they did something bad because their friends were doing it, how frequently does the parent give a shit?

    I know that when I was growing up the first word out of my mom's mouth would be "If your friends jumped off a bridge would you do it?"

    At what point do we say enough is enough?

    If we keep blaming it on racism, and no positive responsible cultural change is expected, nothing will change.

  5. #95
    Senior Member ZPowers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    If we keep blaming it on racism, and no positive responsible cultural change is expected, nothing will change.
    I agree, with regards to this problem especially. Racism was undeinably a much bigger problem in the past, and it may have led to minority groups finding themselves in more desperate situations or unable to amass any significant wealth, but it isn't what we need to focus on with regards to steering people who are disadvantaged, regardless of race, away from crime and towards potential prosperity (or at least toward a fair chance at it, if they work for it). The issue today is a lot more about communal and economic differences than racial ones (In my mind, class has surpassed race as the most distinctly divisive factor among groups of Americans today, or at the very least it's going that way).

    So yes, all I'm saying for some families it may have been the overtly racist attitudes and policies of decades past that forced them into these bad situations, but focusing on race is not the way to solve the problem that exists today.
    Does he want a pillow for his head?

  6. #96
    wholly charmed Spartacuss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    You are free to jump to any conclusion you want. But to most people, someone who shoved a cop is not as violent as someone who went wild with a baseball bat.
    I don't know what kind of people you associate with but, to most people, someone who committed felony assault by walking up to and attacking someone who had not been addressing him definitely has issues. Not to mention, this was a guy who was FIRED from a security job outside a night club because he often flipped out and was too rough on patrons. Neighbors had complained to local police authorities that Zimmerman followed them home or questioned them or their visitors.
    Can you say anger management issues and control issues?
    This is a person with a history of "going wild." I don't know if you were raised by wolves to find his behavior normal/minor/irrelevant.


    Like it or not, these are relevant considerations if you are trying to determine if the person is likely to repeat the behavior.
    I'm curious to know what makes considerations relevant. It is my point that his prior actions should be relevant considerations. A person with a history of losing it and attacking people who had not attacked him, who told 911 that he was following someone, who referred to this person - knowing absolutely nothing about him- as "fucking punks/coons" (whichever) and claims "these assholes always get away" in regard to that person, might SHOCKINGLY have AGAIN, as is his HABIT, instigated the confrontation, especially feeling invincible with his gun, his knowledge that he's "pals" with the PD and his father's pull.

    But you can't attribute it solely to racism.
    I fail to see how this is relevant. People are still right to question the egregious circumstances that resulted in this nutbag following and killing this kid and being so quickly and easily free to go. Race is the major factor in disparate treatment of homicide victims. Whether it was at play here is a reasonable question, especially considering that this was the Sanford PD, which had had such issues in the past.
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  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacuss View Post
    someone who committed felony assault by walking up to and attacking someone who had not been addressing him definitely has issues.
    He was young, stupid and drunk at the time. And he did not attack someone. He simply annoyed the cop who charged him. He was not convicted.

    Not to mention, this was a guy who was FIRED from a security job outside a night club because he often flipped out and was too rough on patrons.
    That was one dude's characterization of him when he was young and stupid. People do change substantially as they mature.

    Neighbors had complained to local police authorities that Zimmerman followed them home or questioned them or their visitors.
    So what? He might be a nosy neighbor. He might be overly zealous or highly dedicated to stemming the tide of crime that was prevalent in his neighborhood. It is arguably better than refusing to get involved and allow crime to flourish.

    attacking people who had not attacked him, who told 911 that he was following someone, who referred to this person - knowing absolutely nothing about him- as "fucking punks/coons" (whichever) and claims "these assholes always get away" in regard to that person, might SHOCKINGLY have AGAIN, as is his HABIT, instigated the confrontation, especially feeling invincible with his gun, his knowledge that he's "pals" with the PD and his father's pull.
    This is your conjecture. At this point, Zim's account is arguably more probable.

    Race is the major factor in disparate treatment of homicide victims. Whether it was at play here is a reasonable question, especially considering that this was the Sanford PD, which had had such issues in the past.
    All evidence should be explored, but the conclusion must be based on facts, not mob emotions.

  8. #98
    wholly charmed Spartacuss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    He was young, stupid and drunk at the time. And he did not attack someone. He simply annoyed the cop who charged him. He was not convicted.
    He did not just "annoy" a cop. He attacked him. That he worked out a favorable deal afterwards does not negate this. Again, I don't know what kind of people you are among, but I'd venture that most of us, even when young and drunk, could manage not to assault a cop who had not AT ALL attacked us. This dude has had issues for years.

    That was one dude's characterization of him when he was young and stupid. People do change substantially as they mature.
    And so what if it was one person's characterization? Just how many persons have to state something before it is true? Either it happened or it didn't.

    Further, you are assuming this was due to his youth, not his temperament, on the basis of nothing except that he was younger. Guess what? Violent adults do not just appear out of nowhere, but were usually violent youths. Some traits stay for good and by all indication, his hyperreactive and violent tendencies stayed with him.

    So what? He might be a nosy neighbor.
    Are you high right now? How many of us have nosy neighbors? Now how many of us were so harassed by these nosy neighbors that we were moved to REPORT it to the cops?

    It is arguably better than refusing to get involved and allow crime to flourish.
    His neighbors apparently disagree. And yet for all his hyper-reactive harassment of his neighbors and their guests, crime still flourished.

    At this point, Zim's account is arguably more probable.
    This is laughable. And you know it. Put aside your emotions and try again.

    All evidence should be explored, but the conclusion must be based on facts, not mob emotions.
    Where the fuck did anybody suggest evaluating anything on emotion? What a crackpot point to make in response to what was quoted! What has been advocated is that the evidence SHOULD be evaluated, not swept under Sanford's dirty rug.
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  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacuss View Post
    He did not just "annoy" a cop. He attacked him. That he worked out a favorable deal afterwards does not negate this. Again, I don't know what kind of people you are among, but I'd venture that most of us, even when young and drunk, could manage not to assault a cop who had not AT ALL attacked us. This dude has had issues for years.
    It is disingenuous to use word "attack" when you know it was a simple shove.

    Further, you are assuming this was due to his youth, not his temperament, on the basis of nothing except that he was younger. Guess what? Violent adults do not just appear out of nowhere, but were usually violent youths. Some traits stay for good and by all indication, his hyperreactive and violent tendencies stayed with him.
    Pure conjecture. Some people learn to control their negative emotions as they mature. You lack the facts to back up the claim that he's a Dirty Harry wannabe.

    Are you high right now? How many of us have nosy neighbors? Now how many of us were so harassed by these nosy neighbors that we were moved to REPORT it to the cops?
    Where do you get your information from? A few might not like him. But others have a high opinion of him.

    His neighbors apparently disagree. And yet for all his hyper-reactive harassment of his neighbors and their guests, crime still flourished.
    Another misinformed generalization.


    Where the fuck did anybody suggest evaluating anything on emotion? What a crackpot point to make in response to what was quoted! What has been advocated is that the evidence SHOULD be evaluated, not swept under Sanford's dirty rug.
    Look at your own behavior. You selectively reject facts when they disagree with your conclusion. You provided little support of your points other than to repeat them over and over in an outraged and condescending manner.

  10. #100
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Hopefully Zimmerman gets convicted of second-degree murder. I'm not really a fan of armed, mentally-unstable people roaming the streets, provoking people so they can kill them.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

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