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  1. #31
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xisnotx View Post
    So then I am nothing more than a slave to the thoughts of those who came before me? I'm not free to do as I wish...even if my wishes aren't particularly harmful to anyone? A cog in a system condemned to live out my fate as dictated by men prior? As are my children...and their children?

    Hardly an existence worth living in the first place.

    Practicalities aside.
    You don't get access to all of the benefits of society without also being subject to its rules. You don't want rules? Move to a place like Siberia or Antarctica.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  2. #32
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Free will is personal responsibility and personal responsibility is being accountable for the predictable consequences of your actions, your actions are your words and deeds.
    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    "The only things that can properly be called crimes, are those acts with actively deprive others of their rights."
    Quote Originally Posted by FireShield98 View Post
    Obviously, some laws - laws that make it illegal to kill, or steal, or damage property, or discriminate, or force someone to do something against their own will - are necessary in order to ensure that people can't affect other people's lives in negative ways. However, those are pretty much common sense in any decent human, but they're made into laws so that people who aren't decent can be punished. I think that laws that prevent people from doing things that affect only them are pretty unfair, but laws that prevent people from doing things that infringe upon the rights of other people (this includes things such as noise pollution and light trespassing) are useful to ensure that no one can affect someone else's life (as you complained about laws doing).
    If laws really did just forbid people from infringing on the freedom of others, they would be much more palatable to follow. Many laws, however, are irrational and nonintuitive, such that an honest, peaceable person attempting to do no harm can still wind up on the wrong side. This does not encourage respect for the law. I agree with FireShield about laws trying to protect individuals from their own stupidity. Moreover, the law should hold people accountable for the actual consequences of their actions, not some probabilistic assessment (people are not statistics), and certainly not for outcomes that were outside their reasonable control.

    Quote Originally Posted by xisnotx View Post
    Anarchism is it? I ws thinking more along the lines of a system more fluid in nature and not bound necessarily to times past. A system that focuses more on the future.
    How about a system that focuses on the present: what actual harm was done, to whom, and by whom?

    In a system where no one is above the law, it becomes more important for people to serve the law than for the law to serve humanity.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  3. #33
    Let me count the ways Betty Blue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    In a system where no one is above the law, it becomes more important for people to serve the law than for the law to serve humanity.

    Oh but some are... diplomats for example.
    "We knew he was someone who had a tragic flaw, that's where his greatness came from"

  4. #34
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    Oh but some are... diplomats for example.
    You'd be surprised.

    The hyper scrutiny placed on many political figures kind of makes it difficult to skirt the law.

    Especially when your opposition in the election spends thousands on a research group to dig into every nook and cranny of your past.

  5. #35
    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
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    Son, there's no society without law.
    Some societies happen to not have them written - which is probably worse, since it leaves a big margin for arbitrary acts. Would you rather be judged by a tribal chief or by a judge?
    -----------------

    A man builds. A parasite asks 'Where is my share?'
    A man creates. A parasite says, 'What will the neighbors think?'
    A man invents. A parasite says, 'Watch out, or you might tread on the toes of God... '


    -----------------

  6. #36
    Senior Member UniqueMixture's Avatar
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    In Stage four (authority and social order obedience driven), it is important to obey laws, dictums and social conventions because of their importance in maintaining a functioning society. Moral reasoning in stage four is thus beyond the need for individual approval exhibited in stage three. A central ideal or ideals often prescribe what is right and wrong, such as in the case of fundamentalism. If one person violates a law, perhaps everyone would—thus there is an obligation and a duty to uphold laws and rules. When someone does violate a law, it is morally wrong; culpability is thus a significant factor in this stage as it separates the bad domains from the good ones. Most active members of society remain at stage four, where morality is still predominantly dictated by an outside force.

    To the OP just do and say what is needed in public and do your own thing on the side. Don't try to change things until you can do it in one fell swoop or the monkeys will attack you because they feel threatened.

  7. #37
    lab rat extraordinaire CrystalViolet's Avatar
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    I follow laws to the best of my ability because I want to, not because I have to. A small distinction, but it's easier to swallow. I can't put my viewpoint into words very well, because it's very visceral, and I have no problems breaking arbitrary laws, if they so happen to be unaligned with my sense of morality. It's fortunate for me societal values align much with my own, I'd be screwed if they didn't. I do however hold the belief that for the majority law increases free will for most people, rather than decreases it. In an ideal world, laws wouldn't be necessary, every one act with the greater good in mind, but unfortunately a fair majority in reality are concerned with theirs and their own, which means morality has to be dictated by law.
    I've probably confused the issue, but I've thought long and hard about this. It's probably a surprising position from some one who is very law abiding, but it was a very counscious decision for me where as I suspect it isn't so much for others. I don't obey the law because it's there.
    Currently submerged under an avalanche of books and paper work. I may come back up for air from time to time.
    Real life awaits and she is a demanding mistress.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  8. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    If laws really did just forbid people from infringing on the freedom of others, they would be much more palatable to follow. Many laws, however, are irrational and nonintuitive, such that an honest, peaceable person attempting to do no harm can still wind up on the wrong side. This does not encourage respect for the law. I agree with FireShield about laws trying to protect individuals from their own stupidity. Moreover, the law should hold people accountable for the actual consequences of their actions, not some probabilistic assessment (people are not statistics), and certainly not for outcomes that were outside their reasonable control.
    That's all theorising and abstraction of the worst order.

    In the UK at least the law is not probabilistic at all, its based upon reasonableness, and that's reasonableness as opposed to rationalism which is more perfectionist and what you and others who've attacked the law per se are actually suggesting is that unless the law can be perfect, the law is an ass.

    I think believing that things simply must be perfect is at the heart of a hell of a lot of personal and social ills.

  9. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasofy View Post
    Son, there's no society without law.
    Some societies happen to not have them written - which is probably worse, since it leaves a big margin for arbitrary acts. Would you rather be judged by a tribal chief or by a judge?
    Judged by the local big man or an accountable public official, you dont need to seek out obscure examples, the rule of primitive conventionality rather than publically accountable law is truly some sick ass shit to contemplate.

  10. #40
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    That's all theorising and abstraction of the worst order.

    In the UK at least the law is not probabilistic at all, its based upon reasonableness, and that's reasonableness as opposed to rationalism which is more perfectionist and what you and others who've attacked the law per se are actually suggesting is that unless the law can be perfect, the law is an ass.

    I think believing that things simply must be perfect is at the heart of a hell of a lot of personal and social ills.
    You are reading far more into my comments than is there. First, I live in the U.S., so my comments are based on experience with U.S. legal system. Second, knowledge that a system will never be perfect is no excuse for not trying to improve it, though it is often used as such. Third, I am arguing precisely against theory and abstraction, and in favor of concrete, observable events. Either someone infringed on the rights of another, or he/she did not. Many laws, however, at least in the U.S., are far more effective at generating revenue for the government through the collection of fines than in making the community any safer, more orderly, or pleasant to live in.
    Last edited by Coriolis; 04-02-2012 at 02:17 AM. Reason: Key word omitted.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

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