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  1. #11
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    You can go ahead and cry me a river if you think that will help...

    Those in control will always exploit those who aren't, regardless of what system their doing it under.

    It would happen in your utopian world just the same as it happens in our real one.
    At what point was I proposing a utopia?

    I don't see the point of what you're saying. I could go back and time and just as easily imagine someone saying the same things in the defense of absolute monarchy and against republicanism.

    You haven't actually put forward a good reason not to aim for something better.

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    The best you can hope for is to minimize it's effects.
    And that's the point, and that is something a republic did better than an absolute monarchy.

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    I'm not saying that there isn't more we could be doing to combat the symptoms of our global problems, there is, but to think some new system will solve all our ill's is naive at best, and insane at worst.
    What makes you so sure of such bold declarations? How many other times did someone or another muse about the immortality of their old world's contemporary system? Have any of them been right?

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    We have spent some $ and we have lost some lives, but in the grand scheme of things the cost to us hasn't been that high. We don't have some lost generation of men like we did after WWI. Our military endeavors haven't bankrupted us yet. And all things considered (whether you agree with our military actions or not), we have done a fine job of securing US interests.
    I'm not so sure the USA has, especially in the past 12 or so years.

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    People love war, they love the theater and the ability to unite against a common foe for once. They love being distracted from boring domestic issues. This has pretty much always been true, and to an extent will always be true.
    And yet the political landscape has evolved just the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Good luck.

    I'll stick with my pessimistic realism.
    Pessimism and realism are two different things, and it is much more in line with pessimism (as well as optimism) to declare that something is inevitable and ought not be pondered about. Realism is more about choice, it's more about taking in information and thinking about it contingently.

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    I'll believe it when I see it.

    2nd and 3rd world nations will never be able to unite against first world nations. The power required for those nations, or a group thereof, to make a difference precludes their ability to desire such changes.

    Let me put it this way....

    China, India, and Brazil stand on the precipice global emergence in the first world. The more powerful they become the greater the interest they have in maintaining the status quo (their share of the pie). The amount of international cooperation that would be required of 2nd and 3rd world nations in order to shift the balance of power is unattainable. Nations just aren't that good at working together for their long term mutual benefit, when it is so much easier to focus on ones own interests.
    The funnest part is figuring out how it might happen.


    First of, let's clear up some general points.

    The spread of an ideology, and the competition of ideologies, does not have to work as you describe. You don't just have a bunch of countries declaring themselves A and a bunch declaring themselves B and then fighting like sports teams. There were apparently sides in the cold war, but great disagreements between the constituents of each side. There were also those who explicitly declared themselves a part of neither side (India, Egypt, Indonesia, Yugoslavia, etc..), and those who changed their positions throughout (China). The point is that the spread of ideology and the interaction of states are not one-to-one.

    More importantly, the assertion that the most powerful nations would stand for one thing, and that the remaining weaker nations would stand for another, and could/would never combine to create a comparable counterweight is simply the denial of balance of power itself. Weaker nations, driven in fact by self-interest, are more likely to cooperate. Strong nations, also driven by self-interest, have a bad habit of trying to monopolize when it isn't really possible. The USA is declining but it's still here, and like you noted, China, India, and Brazil are all ready to emerge (even if at different stages). What is the likelihood that four preeminent nations (and we can maybe throw in others like the EU, Russian, and Japan) are all going to constructively maintain this same system with each other?

    Finally, you presume to much that states will actually do what is in their rational self-interest (isolate yourself from the foreign world? Invade Afghanistan?), and perhaps you also aren't recognizing that sometimes you can fulfill self-interest precisely by adopting an ideological posture.

    With all that out of the way, let me focus more on a particular point. Your point that no nation would be of the anti-gobalist ideology and powerful at the same time is very dubious.

    Here are 3 ways (which I doubt are all ways) that I think it could happen.

    One is that a weak nation or nations adopts the ideology and then becomes a powerful nation after the fact. This is not hard to imagine because a good number of nations we currently consider weak have real potential to become powerful. I do not assume, like you do, that such a nation would abruptly cease to aligned with its ideology. These nations, they are still made of people, you know? The French revolution took place at a time when France was very powerful and the French peasants were actually experience somewhat improving conditions. Power does not necessarily make everyone into Machiavelli. It often has a way of making people very heady. Heady goes with ideology well.

    Another is that an already powerful nation adopts the anti-globalist ideology. Why would one do this if globalization inherently helps the already powerful? Because there is more than one powerful nation In fact, there are going to be a lot more as the world is on a flattening trend at the moment. If I'm superpower X, and I'd really like to take down superpower Y and Z, I may find a great niche in taking on this new ideology. The USA is not a stranger to this. A good part of its history it has exploited the appeal of some apparently anti-hegemonic values. It certainly helped against the USSR. This is especially plausible from the current outlook, because the USA is often viewed as the actual master and beneficiary of globalization, and (much less frequently) this also happens to China and may start to happen more often. That increases the likelihood that a rival power will adopt an anti-globalist ideology.

    Lastly, this ideology could emerge out of global chaos. How could this happen? A number of ways, but here's just one example. What if the USA is absorbed by domestic conflict? Preferably some kind of civil war, like secession or revolution (though other causes are still possible). The USA would presumably stop garrisoning the world at that point, and chaos would follow. War against Israel, war from China taking Taiwan, possibly wars of Russian aggression and war between India and Pakistan (which may more may not be tied to the other war in east Asia). This so realign the global scheme as to be a great opportunity for new powers with new ideas. It would also appear to be a grand indictment of globalization itself. Such a WWIII would, I'm sure, appear to be the failure of globalism as an ideology.
    Last edited by Magic Poriferan; 03-24-2012 at 11:57 PM.
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  2. #12
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    I'm not so sure the USA has, especially in the past 12 or so years.
    How cheap is our gas relative to the rest of the world...

    There is currently no fiscal incentive to adopt anti-globalist ideology.

  3. #13
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Anyhow, there's no particular aim to this thread. Just throwing thoughts out there.
    Well, in that spirit, have you read Jihad versus McWorld yet? Its a bit dated now, but it touches upon much of what you've been writing about (I don't particularly agree with anti-globalism, but I thought it might be a good starting point for anyone with that mind-set interested in the subject).

  4. #14
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Well, in that spirit, have you read Jihad versus McWorld yet? Its a bit dated now, but it touches upon much of what you've been writing about (I don't particularly agree with anti-globalism, but I thought it might be a good starting point for anyone with that mind-set interested in the subject).
    I haven't read that, though the title sounds terribly familiar.


    Just reading of it, I will say I agree with this: "Barber's prognosis in his 1995 book, Jihad vs McWorld: How Globalism and Tribalism Are Reshaping the World, is generally negative — he concludes that neither global corporations nor traditional cultures are supportive of democracy."

    I feel that globalization amounts to the same processes that undermine democracy and representation, and hyperbolically distribute wealth domestically here in the USA (and other countries) simply being scaled up to engulf the entire earth (you can see my thoughts on banks, corporations, and unregulated economics elsewhere). There's also the whole other dimension regarding unrestrained military and security being defined as global.

    But in so far as there is a basis for condemning the globalist ideology, it certainly lies no where in cultural regression or vicious xenophobia. Perhaps from a strictly geostrategic perspective it would be nice to have the practical support of such places as the middle-east (in its current state), but it is certainly nothing to aspire for nor does it set an example for any long-term success against globalization.
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  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    "Barber's prognosis in his 1995 book, Jihad vs McWorld: How Globalism and Tribalism Are Reshaping the World, is generally negative — he concludes that neither global corporations nor traditional cultures are supportive of democracy".
    Of course, modern democracy is based on universal literacy. And the dream of universal literacy ony began in 1440 with the invention of the printing press.

    So universal literacy has been with us for only a short time, and only in the developed world. And the old, ancient, tribal and traditional spoken cultures have been with us for as long as 200,000 years.

    And on top of these ancient spoken cultures, and our new literate culture, we have placed the electronic tribal culture, so like traditional spoken cultures.

    And alas, the spoken cultures and the electronic cultures are not the natural home of democracy.

  6. #16
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    To put a slightly different angle on this, an example popped into my head for globalization hurting Americans and Chinese.

    Globalization harms the USA due to the fact that American business satisfy their demand for labor by hiring people in China and doing most of the production in China. So the USA is less productive, has few employment opportunities, etc.. It also gives businesses less incentive to invest in American. It's mainly beneficial to an already wealthier minority of Americans in the management class who take in corporate profit.

    China is presumed to be benefiting from this then, and if you look at figures like employment, GDP growth, etc.. it does look like it's better. China even accounts for most of the world's declining poverty rate. The thing is, virtually the entire reason business owners gain from outsourcing to China is that the Chinese have shitty working conditions. They work long, for little money, with fewer rights, benefits, or even safety measures. As a result, the Chinese elite have have very little incentive to improve conditions for their workers. It ends up mirroring the USA. A wealthy minority of Chinese who profit from these business practices benefits and exercise their control to maintain this arrangement and further enhance their privilege. Incidentally, China's wealth distribution is almost equally as imbalanced as the USA's.

    This represents one of the most common fears about the goals of globalism. It may break down barriers between nation states but extremely increase the divide between wealthy elites and poor masses the world over.
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  7. #17
    Senior Member Munchies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    , China's wealth distribution is almost equally as imbalanced as the USA's.

    This represents one of the most common fears about the goals of globalism. It may break down barriers between nation states but extremely increase the divide between wealthy elites and poor masses the world over.
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  8. #18
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    The Poison and the Antidote

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    "Barber's prognosis in his 1995 book, Jihad vs McWorld: How Globalism and Tribalism Are Reshaping the World, is generally negative — he concludes that neither global corporations nor traditional cultures are supportive of democracy."
    On the other hand literacy is the antidote to both traditional, tribal, spoken cultures, as well as the antidote to our new electronic, tribal cultures.

    Tribalism is the poison and literacy is the antidote.

    And by the same token, literacy is the poison and tribalism is the antidote.

    And always remember, the toxicity lies in the dose. The higher the dose, the more toxic. And the lower the dose, the less toxic.

  9. #19
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    The U.S. and the USSR have some strange fraternal twin relationship - the USSR and their communism, the USA and their globalism. The equal, flip-side ideological idiocy of both communism and anarcho-capitalist libertarianism.

    I was a child in the 80's as the Cold War ended and sometimes I wonder if this is where my fascination with Russia really came from, not from a mere aesthetic or fanciful pull toward their culture, but because of this strange Gemini twinship between my country and the nation at the core responsibility for the USSR.

    Globalization is equally as One World Order as Soviet Communism, just with a capitalist twist.

    All of these people make me want to barf. Let people have their national identities, for the love of fucking god.

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