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Thread: Gender quotas

  1. #11
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quotas are at best a temporary crutch, to help prod people out of old habits. They are best applied early in the pipeline. There probably are fewer qualified female corporate leaders than male, because fewer women get the necessary experience and grooming in mid-level and lower-level management positions. Just as in science and engineering, women (and other underrepresented groups) need to be brought into the field early in their academic and professional careers, so they are aware of opportunities and see them as viable career goals.

    As for the willingness of women to sacrifice family life for corporate life, this is a sacrifice we would do better to stop requiring from men. This has less to do with the internal desires of an individual woman (or man), and more to do with external pressures and expectations. The goal should not be complete gender parity in all occupations, but rather complete gender parity in the ability to develop one's real potential, without the artificial hindrances of prejudice and unbalanced social expectations.
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  2. #12
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    ^^excellent post.

    Demographic inequality is an issue that goes much deeper than the final outcome of job hiring. It happens at the level of education, at the level of how gender identities are established within a society. Without role models, many people don't assume certain paths are open to them. People generally like to fall within the norm, and so it is the exceptional person who blazes a trail into a career that is dominated by one gender. If fewer individuals from one gender enter a particular career, then that causes the issues with the fairness of quotas. Social pressures keep people in their places and accepted roles. Quotas may be a place to start, but the issue needs to be addressed on a deeper level of societal norms and their unquestioned assumptions.
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  3. #13
    FigerPuppet
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    As has been mentioned before, quotas will most likely work against the cause of feminism as men will no longer see women as their equals in the corporate world. Women will be seen as weak creatures who need the help of the state to get ahead, and any beneficiaries of the policy will be loathed.
    Another thing: It sounds quite condescending when you say that women don't know what they really want - because that is what you are saying. You're saying that you know better, and you're arguing from the point that job types should be roughly fifty-fifty of each gender, which assumes that there are no inherent differences between men and women that will make them prefer some careers over others, or make it more difficult for them to perform as well as the opposite gender in the same position - like a dwarf running against Hussain Bolt.

    Nothing is holding women back. It's not like applications are automatically shoved into an incinerator if it says "Gender: Female". Those who want to be leaders will adapt to the environment and prove to the people responsible for the decision that they are indeed capable. They won't let others stereotype them into the kind of woman who will take off 3 months to be with her newborn, because they know that that is completely and utterly unacceptable on the executive tier. Observe the Chancellor of Germany, Angela Merkel. She should be the role-model for any woman who has ambitions to be a leader.

  4. #14
    Superwoman Red Herring's Avatar
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    This thread is suffering from a considerable lack of drama. I am waiting for one of the alpha males to complain about the damn bloodsucking women and their sense of entitlement. Because let's face it they are all bitches who want it all: privileges and protection and no responsibility.....oh, and those stuck up bitches don't put out to those guys who really deserve it.

    Come on, men of TypoC, ... don't let me down.

    Alternatively I would also accept yet another debate on sex vs gender and nature vs nurture.
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  5. #15
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Lol bitchez ain't shit.
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  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
    This thread is suffering from a considerable lack of drama. I am waiting for one of the alpha males to complain about the damn bloodsucking women and their sense of entitlement. Because let's face it they are all bitches who want it all: privileges and protection and no responsibility.....oh, and those stuck up bitches don't put out to those guys who really deserve it.

    Come on, men of TypoC, ... don't let me down.

    Alternatively I would also accept yet another debate on sex vs gender and nature vs nurture.
    Oh come on, does every thread on this forum has to end up like this?

    ... Then again I guess it's related somewhat. Quotas are dumb unless there are enough competent people to fill them, and for now this clearly isn't the case. Politic for instance is serious stuff (although you wouldn't know that by looking at France): I want my ministers to be chosen for their excellent skills, not to fill up a gender quota and give a "good image" to the public.

    Quote Originally Posted by SmileyMan View Post
    Nothing is holding women back. It's not like applications are automatically shoved into an incinerator if it says "Gender: Female". Those who want to be leaders will adapt to the environment and prove to the people responsible for the decision that they are indeed capable. They won't let others stereotype them into the kind of woman who will take off 3 months to be with her newborn, because they know that that is completely and utterly unacceptable on the executive tier. Observe the Chancellor of Germany, Angela Merkel. She should be the role-model for any woman who has ambitions to be a leader.
    Yes, but that's supposing women are interested in being leaders as much as men do. Just because there are few female leaders doesn't mean all others secretly want the same.
    Besides, applications from women might not be shoved into an incinerator but they're often taken less seriously. Let's not pretend there's no unconscious bias against them. The "problem" (supposing there's a problem - perhaps women are biologically driven to not seek leading positions - that's not the point of the thread though) is two-folds: first we must stop hinting that guys are the ones who should take care of things - which means burning all Twilight books and DVDs in a giant bonfire, for starters - and then be ready to welcome them as leaders.
    For the last part, gender quotas might help for the initial push (quotas or another way to encourage equality), but without the first part it's pointless and detrimental to everyone.

  7. #17
    figsfiggyfigs
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    Someone really needs to bring @xisnotx in here, so we can hear what he thinks about this gender quota bs!

  8. #18
    Senior Member Viridian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Quotas are at best a temporary crutch, to help prod people out of old habits. They are best applied early in the pipeline. There probably are fewer qualified female corporate leaders than male, because fewer women get the necessary experience and grooming in mid-level and lower-level management positions. Just as in science and engineering, women (and other underrepresented groups) need to be brought into the field early in their academic and professional careers, so they are aware of opportunities and see them as viable career goals.

    As for the willingness of women to sacrifice family life for corporate life, this is a sacrifice we would do better to stop requiring from men. This has less to do with the internal desires of an individual woman (or man), and more to do with external pressures and expectations. The goal should not be complete gender parity in all occupations, but rather complete gender parity in the ability to develop one's real potential, without the artificial hindrances of prejudice and unbalanced social expectations.
    Your points are very good, Coriolis. Like I said, I think it's like a Band-Aid - a temporary fix while education tries to catch up.
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  9. #19
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nales View Post
    Oh come on, does every thread on this forum has to end up like this?
    Few people on this forum are capable of having an intelligent conversation about this topic, so...yes.

    Take, for instance, Exhibit A:

    Quote Originally Posted by Nales View Post
    Quotas are dumb unless there are enough competent people to fill them, and for now this clearly isn't the case.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nales View Post
    Besides, applications from women might not be shoved into an incinerator but they're often taken less seriously. Let's not pretend there's no unconscious bias against them.
    Now, in what universe does having these two thoughts simultaneously ever make sense? Is this the doublethink thread again? If there are potentially competent people being passed up on the basis of gender alone, then on what grounds can you say that quotas are "dumb" because "clearly" there aren't enough competent people to fill them?

    Now, onto Exhibit B:

    Quote Originally Posted by Nales View Post
    Politic for instance is serious stuff (although you wouldn't know that by looking at France): I want my ministers to be chosen for their excellent skills, not to fill up a gender quota and give a "good image" to the public.
    Instead of the perception of quota-hires = less competent being the problem here, you've just gone ahead and assumed that they really would be less competent. You've also assumed that any man hired outside of a quota system has been hired for his skills and excellence, which is certainly not the case 100% of the time (or even most of the time, but that's a matter of debate.) Isn't that the entire point of these quota proposals? That a bunch of dudes are getting hired because of who they know or "old boys networks" while a bunch of women are having their CVs tossed in the waste bin because...they're women? I mean, you may disagree with that (though I don't know how anyone could if they're not completely naive and oblivious, which I suppose being a dude gives you the privilege of being), but you've just gone ahead and assumed it's true AND adduced your assumption as evidence in your arguments.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nales View Post
    Yes, but that's supposing women are interested in being leaders as much as men do. Just because there are few female leaders doesn't mean all others secretly want the same.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nales View Post
    supposing there's a problem - perhaps women are biologically driven to not seek leading positions - that's not the point of the thread though
    Now we've gotten into the age-old, tired apologetics, though at least it doesn't seem like you believe that completely.

    Lastly, we have Exhibit C, where you present your very well thought-out solutions:

    Quote Originally Posted by Nales View Post
    first we must stop hinting that guys are the ones who should take care of things - which means burning all Twilight books and DVDs in a giant bonfire, for starters
    I'm not quite sure what that means, though I will agree that Twilight books and DVDs need to be burned in a giant bonfire. If "guys" would be taking care of things in a quota system, then it's only because they are the majority of people in (1) hiring and (2) legislative positions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nales View Post
    - and then be ready to welcome them as leaders.
    Well, no shit Sherlock! That's the entire problem! Without quotas, they're not welcome as leaders because they are structurally filtered out of leadership positions. With quotas, they're not welcome as leaders because "that's unfair and they're just lazy ladies who didn't have to work as hard as teh menz to get where they are!" If it were as easy as declaring "welcome them as leaders, people!" then our problems would be solved.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nales View Post
    For the last part, gender quotas might help for the initial push (quotas or another way to encourage equality), but without the first part it's pointless and detrimental to everyone.
    Without what "first part?" The part about "guys taking care of everything?" Is that what you're talking about?

    Quote Originally Posted by SmileyMan View Post
    As has been mentioned before, quotas will most likely work against the cause of feminism as men will no longer see women as their equals in the corporate world. Women will be seen as weak creatures
    Hahaha, as though this isn't already the case.
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  10. #20
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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