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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    Agreed, but that is still better than Islam.
    Agreed better than Islam This is no Kick at the Koran though. Man is once again promoting his views when the book advocates no such thing as murder, terrorism etc. The power books are being used as tools of man rather than directions and examples from higher beings. hanging women off goal posts far more the deplorable behaviour. Also Islam has no right to burn our flags promote murder and then live in our countries. whether Christian on not in religion, western civilisation is Christian orientated and needs to stay that way. Hostile takeovers are now in action and the Christian Church needs to take a voice. My original post in this thread mentioning pornography and alcohol is to draw attention to that fact that we are also stoking the fire and olive branches can't hurt. I am an Angel i know about such things

  2. #32
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by godscollie View Post
    Agreed better than Islam This is no Kick at the Koran though. Man is once again promoting his views when the book advocates no such thing as murder, terrorism etc. The power books are being used as tools of man rather than directions and examples from higher beings. hanging women off goal posts far more the deplorable behaviour.
    Quran (2:191-193) - "And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]... but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah."
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    Quran (2:191-193) - "And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]... but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah."
    I have not read the Quran, I didnt even know how to spell it. I have just spoken to a few Muslims who have said the Quran does not advocate a message of terrorism and violence. This is a very interesting quote though and bares something in relation to lets sort out our own house philosophy. I do not believe religion is personally for Allah i serve God Almighty and Jesus first and above but i am not discounting Allah is a major player. Philosophy should be above religion. I also believe western civilisation is not making an attack religiously ie trying to convert Muslims, but Islam is now making strides into Christian society and is trying to convert. This needs to be blocked. I do not know whether i directly understood the intention behind your quote? I stand behind my saying that if the Christian Church had its house in any kind of order this move into western civilisation could be blocked. Christianity has allowed itself to become a lame donkey.

  4. #34
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by godscollie View Post
    I have not read the Quran, I didnt even know how to spell it. I have just spoken to a few Muslims who have said the Quran does not advocate a message of terrorism
    The word "terrorism" wasn't invented yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by godscollie View Post
    and violence. This is a very interesting quote though and bares something in relation to lets sort out our own house philosophy. I do not believe religion is personally for Allah i serve God Almighty and Jesus first and above but i am not discounting Allah is a major player. Philosophy should be above religion. I also do not believe western civilisation is not making an attack religiously, I do believe Islam is doing that.
    Sentences with two negatives usually don't read well. When you say you do NOT believe western civilization (who?) is NOT making an attack religiously, does that mean you believe western civilization (who?) IS making an attack religiously?
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    The word "terrorism" wasn't invented yet.

    I realise that, a little bit picky for me. Ok it does not advocate murder which follows the guise terrorism. It applies: terrorism is murder and no attack on Islam as a religion has taken place so the quote from Allah has no bearing. neither the Iraq war or Afghanistan is about religious ideology.



    Sentences with two negatives usually don't read well. When you say you do NOT believe western civilization (who?) is NOT making an attack religiously, does that mean you believe western civilization (who?) IS making an attack religiously?
    Sorry my apologies. By western i mean Christian. Western is very broad and i did need to clarify. I do not believe Christian motivation as a religion is making strides into Allah but i do believe the middle east which is a far bigger powerhouse in terms of religious hold over the masses is advocating their own crusade. Trying to convert Christians to Allah directly in Christian territory. This is not so directly about religion as philosophy. Mass conversion over time to Allah in western civilisation and beyond will lead to inequality for women, stoning etc As a society the time to act is now I know i put a lot of emphasis into this and do not have a full grasp of the facts but i stand by the basics. For all the pitfalls of western civilisation it stands as a better example. For example democracy is good ideology in my humble opinion. The original poster makes reference to Britain which is western and the warning Islam is starting to get a firm grip. I am just chucking in my twenty pence worth that i believe too. The buck stops at the Christian Churches door, they proclaim to deliver the message therefore they should match there beliefs with action. I am ready for battle in terms of being a human Angel but my main focus in the middle east is Iran and nuclear technology which i believe should be prohibited at all costs.

  6. #36
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by godscollie View Post
    I realise that, a little bit picky for me. Ok it does not advocate murder which follows the guise terrorism. It applies: terrorism is murder and no attack on Islam as a religion has taken place so the quote from Allah has no bearing. neither the Iraq war or Afghanistan is about religious ideology.
    I don't intend to be picky, but only to pick up on something I've noticed with ideologues (whether Muslim, Xian, Randroid, Mormon, etc.). And that is their tendency to do or say almost anything in defense of their creed. So when some Muslims try to convince you that violence isn't advocated in the Quran, search for the deceit within those words. In sum, you will hear either outright lies (perhaps believed by the adherent), or apologias for their creed. Catch them in contradictions, liars have a difficult time maintaining a set of coherent claims.

    But with Muslims there is always (and I mean always) one thing to keep in mind - you are the infidel. And while they obviously won't kill you just for that, they have no issue whatsoever with lying to you (which they won't do to other Muslims). And in less primitive areas, stealing from you, as an infidel, is also common practice, as is breaking their contracts with you and making other false promises. Promises and contracts only apply between believers within the faith.

    http://www.al-islam.org/short/wasiyatnama/14.htm
    "(Usul-e-Kafi-2, p 364)
    Hazrat Imam Sadiq (a.s.) has said: The promise of one believer to another believer is such a contract for which there is no Kaffara [penance]. Therefore one who goes against his promise will be deemed to have disobeyed Allah and will incur his displeasure."

    Quote Originally Posted by godscollie View Post
    Sorry my apologies. By western i mean Christian. Western is very broad and i did need to clarify. I do not believe Christian motivation as a religion is making strides into Allah but i do believe the middle east which is a far bigger powerhouse in terms of religious hold over the masses is advocating their own crusade. Trying to convert Christians to Allah directly in Christian territory.
    If history is a good indicator, methods of conversion are often not pleasant.

    Quote Originally Posted by godscollie View Post
    This is not so directly about religion as philosophy. Mass conversion over time to Allah in western civilisation and beyond will lead to inequality for women, stoning etc As a society the time to act is now I know i put a lot of emphasis into this and do not have a full grasp of the facts but i stand by the basics. For all the pitfalls of western civilisation it stands as a better example. For example democracy is good ideology in my humble opinion. The original poster makes reference to Britain which is western and the warning Islam is starting to get a firm grip. I am just chucking in my twenty pence worth that i believe too. The buck stops at the Christian Churches door, they proclaim to deliver the message therefore they should match there beliefs with action. I am ready for battle in terms of being a human Angel but my main focus in the middle east is Iran and nuclear technology which i believe should be prohibited at all costs.
    The Christians in Europe are the ones giving away their culture to Middle Easterners, with the excuse that Islamification is an efficient way of straightening out moral character. The ends justify the means.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    I don't intend to be picky, but only to pick up on something I've noticed with ideologues (whether Muslim, Xian, Randroid, Mormon, etc.). And that is their tendency to do or say almost anything in defense of their creed. So when some Muslims try to convince you that violence isn't advocated in the Quran, search for the deceit within those words. In sum, you will hear either outright lies (perhaps believed by the adherent), or apologias for their creed. Catch them in contradictions, liars have a difficult time maintaining a set of coherent claims.

    But with Muslims there is always (and I mean always) one thing to keep in mind - you are the infidel. And while they obviously won't kill you just for that, they have no issue whatsoever with lying to you (which they won't do to other Muslims). And in less primitive areas, stealing from you, as an infidel, is also common practice, as is breaking their contracts with you and making other false promises. Promises and contracts only apply between believers within the faith.

    http://www.al-islam.org/short/wasiyatnama/14.htm
    "(Usul-e-Kafi-2, p 364)
    Hazrat Imam Sadiq (a.s.) has said: The promise of one believer to another believer is such a contract for which there is no Kaffara [penance]. Therefore one who goes against his promise will be deemed to have disobeyed Allah and will incur his displeasure."



    If history is a good indicator, methods of conversion are often not pleasant.



    The Christians in Europe are the ones giving away their culture to Middle Easterners, with the excuse that Islamification is an efficient way of straightening out moral character. The ends justify the means.
    All valid and good points. your knowledge of Muslim society is much higher than mine.thank you for the constructive conversation.

  8. #38
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    Identity and Violence

    With the end of the Cold War we entered the period of identity politics, or cultural politics and clashes, or the clash of civilizations.

    With the end of the Cold War we were driven back on our identities. And the best way to establish our identity is with conflict; and an even better way to establish our identity is with violent conflict.

    So the purpose of multiculturalism is conflict, and where possible, violent conflict.

    So violent conflict is a positive good in our multicultural world, our global village.

    Anthropology teaches us that traditional tribes maintained their identity by constant war between tribes; and so today, the electronic tribes are maintaining their identities through debate, conflict, and violence.

    There is no greater horror than losing one's identity in the global village and not knowing who we are. And violence is a small price to pay for the security of knowing who we are.

    And to see the tribe of Islam and the tribe of Atheists establishing their identities in ritual tribal warfare, please click on - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCfwc...deFAAAAAHgAMAA

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    With the end of the Cold War we entered the period of identity politics, or cultural politics and clashes, or the clash of civilizations.

    With the end of the Cold War we were driven back on our identities. And the best way to establish our identity is with conflict; and an even better way to establish our identity is with violent conflict.

    So the purpose of multiculturalism is conflict, and where possible, violent conflict.

    So violent conflict is a positive good in our multicultural world, our global village.

    Anthropology teaches us that traditional tribes maintained their identity by constant war between tribes; and so today, the electronic tribes are maintaining their identities through debate, conflict, and violence.

    There is no greater horror than losing one's identity in the global village and not knowing who we are. And violence is a small price to pay for the security of knowing who we are.

    And to see the tribe of Islam and the tribe of Atheists establishing their identities in ritual tribal warfare, please click on - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCfwc...deFAAAAAHgAMAA
    Christians are annoying, im certain I`m not going to like the mussils as well
    "I'm not in this world to live up to your expectations and you're not in this world to live up to mine. "
    -Bruce Lee

  10. #40
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    I am not a Muslim, and my knowledge of the Quran is limited. The most breathtaking and uplifting descriptions I have ever read of God and his creation, however, are from the Quran. I cannot imagine that a faith tradition that contains such beauty is inherently evil. I also cannot imagine that the sacred texts of any religion are the direct works of God. All contain divine inspiration, tempered by human failings. The wise work to discern which is which; the power-hungry and egotistical attempt to obfuscate the distinction.

    Religious law has evolved, as has civil law. Part of Jesus' mission was to reform the traditional Jewish law, and in his own way, Mohammed was similar. Sharia law appears restrictive and biased by modern standards, but in its day it gave women rights they lacked previously in that culture, and indeed in much/most of the western world. Islam is about 600 years older than Christianity, and ~600 years ago, the Christian church was in the throes of the Inquisition. Whether Islam can successfully transition out of its own period of fundamentalist violence depends significantly on those moderate and even progressive Muslims that KDude mentioned. Can Muslim leaders and believers alike come to understand the more limiting injunctions in the Quran as a reflection of their time rather than a literal command of God? Can they learn tolerance, and to leave the judging to God? (Some Christians still have not made this leap.)

    If I feel the need to judge Muslims, I prefer to do it on the basis of their actions. If they are able to express their faith in a way that leaves me free to do the same, and allows us both to contribute to our common society, then I really don't care whether they pray to Allah, or Jesus, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster; or derive inspiration from the Bhagavad Gita or Winnie the Pooh.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

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