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  1. #1
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Default Persecuting religion?

    I've noticed lately that there is a strange shift in public opinion. The religious community feels persecuted. Now it took me awhile to grasp that. However, they do make a good case, especially since many people are now speaking out for them.

    For example, Ben Stein demonstrates in his movie, Expelled, that Creationists and Intelligent Design theorists are being persecuted in the academic community. Another example is parents whose children are being taught about homosexuality in school or being exposed to it at baseball parks.

    YouTube - Bill O'Reilly/ Ben Stein~Atheists Hijacking Academic Freedom
    YouTube - Gay in the elementary schools Part 1
    YouTube - Bill O'Reilly vs. The Gay Community

    What do you think? Is the religious community under attack?
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  2. #2
    Lallygag Moderator Geoff's Avatar
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    A lot of it is about freedom of speech. People are allowed to speak out against things they don't want to have as an enforced belief.

    This website is a good example of the anti-Expelled sentiment.

    Expelled Exposed

  3. #3
    Senior Member Dark Razor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    I've noticed lately that there is a strange shift in public opinion. The religious community feels persecuted. Now it took me awhile to grasp that. However, they do make a good case, especially since many people are now speaking out for them.

    For example, Ben Stein demonstrates in his movie, Expelled, that Creationists and Intelligent Design theorists are being persecuted in the academic community. Another example is parents whose children are being taught about homosexuality in school or being exposed to it at baseball parks.

    YouTube - Bill O'Reilly/ Ben Stein~Atheists Hijacking Academic Freedom
    YouTube - Gay in the elementary schools Part 1
    YouTube - Bill O'Reilly vs. The Gay Community

    What do you think? Is the religious community under attack?
    Well Creationists and "Intelligent Design" "Theorists" are spreading nonsense that is contrary to reality, so they have no place in academia and "Academic freedom" does not have to be granted to them.

    And all these problems between gays and straights also mostly stem from the religious insanity and the ideas and attitudes and traditions associated with it, which is why I think that the spread of those should be inhibited and limited as much as possible. So I basically think it's a good thing if they are "persecuted", as in are being cured of their delusions.

  4. #4
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Razor View Post
    Well Creationists and "Intelligent Design" "Theorists" are spreading nonsense that is contrary to reality, so they have no place in academia and "Academic freedom" does not have to be granted to them.
    So how come intelligent design/creationism can't be taught alongside evolutionary theory in public schools? How would that be the state imposing church?

    And all these problems between gays and straights also mostly stem from the religious insanity and the ideas and attitudes and traditions associated with it, which is why I think that the spread of those should be inhibited and limited as much as possible. So I basically think it's a good thing if they are "persecuted", as in are being cured of their delusions.
    So you think it is fair that homosexuality be taught as a form of diversity in public schools even though the alternative opinions are not allowed to be taught? What about children from homes who are taught that homosexuality is a sin, and then they go to school and are taught it is a form of diversity? Shouldn't they be taught both views so they can decide for themselves?

    Anyone who knows my position knows I'm no fan of the religious community, but don't they deserve as much free speech as anyone else?
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
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  5. #5
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Razor View Post
    Well Creationists and "Intelligent Design" "Theorists" are spreading nonsense that is contrary to reality, so they have no place in academia and "Academic freedom" does not have to be granted to them.

    And all these problems between gays and straights also mostly stem from the religious insanity and the ideas and attitudes and traditions associated with it, which is why I think that the spread of those should be inhibited and limited as much as possible. So I basically think it's a good thing if they are "persecuted", as in are being cured of their delusions.
    Everyone deserves academic freedom to say and to publish what they want. They don't have a right to their jobs, however. And your beliefs are just as intolerant as the people who are prejudiced. You don't persecute people.
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    Senior Member Dark Razor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    So how come intelligent design/creationism can't be taught alongside evolutionary theory in public schools? How would that be the state imposing church?
    Because one is true (even though we are not yet fully certain about all the details) and the other is fantasy. Of course intelligent design could be briefly covered as folklore that also exists, but the point is that the two are not equally viable. Those who try to make the point that they were are dicrediting science and try to promote irrational beliefs to the same level of credibility as science to further their personal agendas.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    So you think it is fair that homosexuality be taught as a form of diversity in public schools even though the alternative opinions are not allowed to be taught? What about children from homes who are taught that homosexuality is a sin, and then they go to school and are taught it is a form of diversity? Shouldn't they be taught both views so they can decide for themselves?

    Anyone who knows my position knows I'm no fan of the religious community, but don't they deserve as much free speech as anyone else?
    Well, I realize it's dangerous to say "such and such opinions should not be expressed", but really, there are not two equally viable opinions opposed to each other in a debate here. We clearly have "right" and "wrong" expressed here, and right should be promoted over wrong. So teachers should stress to children that believing homosexuality or whatever is a sin is opposed to what we consider civilized.

    I also think that in the long run it benefits those people and society as a whole if a reality check is imposed on them. Of course, to do so you basically have to violate their beliefs and values, but in the long run a more civilized and tolerant society could be created. You bring about change in the structure of society by changing the minds of the young, of those who will build and shape the future. If children are mostly educated by their parents they will often have not enough variety of information availabe, or may be even shielded of from certain information by their parents. For this reason I also see home schooling as highly problematic.

    Now, I am not advocating to do this very thing, shield children from certain information, but I do think that religious views should not be presented on an equal level with established scientific truths, the distiction between the two needs to be made clear. One is based on empirical observation and/or sound logical reasoning, and the other is based on beliefs that are backed up by nothing essentially.

    I do think though that religion is probably necessary. It represents a social construct that is important to forge a common identity among a community, it also introduces meaning into otherwise meaningless lifes, and it creates traditions and rituals that carry a strong emotional significance and so also bonds people together who may otherwise have little in common. I am asking myself though if religion is really necessary for this, or could these ends also be achieved by something other than religion, something better than religion? I would hope so but I simply don't know.

    I also think freedom of speech is actually an illusion in our modern society and states. Even if you formally are permitted to freely express your views, you are only allowed to do so if you are unable to influence actual events on a meaningful scale. For examle people like Noam Chomsky or Communists or whomever can rant away all they want because they have no power to challenge the established power structure. If they did, they would be silenced quickly and decisevely.

  7. #7
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    Default An Understandable Mistake

    I can see no reason Creationism can't be taught in school. The problem arises when Creationism wants to be taught as biology.

    Biology is an empirical science while Creationism is a religious belief.

    It is further complicated by the fact that Creationism is a quite sensible religious response to another religious belief called Social Darwinism.

    And unfortunately the Creationists have confused Social Darwinism with the Origin of the Species by Charles Darwin.

    This is a natural mistake as Social Darwinists themselves do claim the Origin of Species as evidence of Social Darwinism. But this is a complete mistake.

    And this has led to the further mistake of claiming that Creationism is biology.

    And freedom of religion does mean Creationism can be taught.

    But to teach it as biology is simply a mistake.

    Although it is an understandable mistake to make.

    V.

  8. #8
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    What you are hearing now with Expelled is NOTHING new. This sentiment has been around for a few decades.

    I grew up in conservative Christianity. Honestly, it's always been, "The world hates us and they're GOING to hate us because we try to do what God wants and they don't understand it; it's unfair, they just want to get rid of God in the schools and the countries; we have to teach our kids how to stand up for Jesus in school even though they'll be persecuted; the liberal institutions are unfair to us; the media dislikes us and will always make us look bad" ... and so on.

    I don't feel like I'm exaggerating. There's a victim/persecution complex in place... and it's taken/reinforced by Jesus saying stuff about how "the world will hate us because we love God" and so on. Anything that seems unfair is just chalked up to being hated for being a believer or because the world doesn't want to know God... rather than because there might be any validity in the complaint.

    (Granted, lots of minority groups are susceptible to this.)

    The difference is now that the Christian groups have decided to finally fight things out in the public arena through the media and arts. So you're starting to see more and more of the sentiment expressed, at last.
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  9. #9
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Very nice post Jennifer.

    Okay, a question for Victor and Dark Razor.

    Would you guys be okay with religion taught as its own class, not within science classrooms?
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
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  10. #10
    Senior Member sriv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    So how come intelligent design/creationism can't be taught alongside evolutionary theory in public schools? How would that be the state imposing church?
    This is very interesting as the issue goes back to its beginnings in the Scopes Monkey Trial. The state decides what should be tested on in it's standardized tests. These tests can be changed and manipulated by a state so that a school does not have to teach a certain topic, or even make aware a certian topic if it does not want to. A few states in America have omitted evolution completely from their standardized tests used to judge the quality of schools and so most schools in that state do not teach evolution. Criticizers have proclaimed this devles deeply into the seperation of church and state, but there is nothing illegal about it. I highly doubt that there is any religious testing going on in state standardized tests.
    If I have not been misinformed, Creationism is taught freely in private or catholic schools, but public schools have no incentive to teach religion. Parents and church ccd are who teach that.
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