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  1. #61
    More human than human MetalWounds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    Not at all. Just an objective observation of white privilege in the United States. Of course there are those who argue that anti discrimination policies are reverse racism, but since the institutional policies already clearly discriminate based on race, I think anti discrimination policies can be considered counter discrimination. Not to mention that diverse work forces are proven to be economically superior to homogeneous ones.
    This is where you lose me, it's not "counter discrimination" that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. That's just a euphemism that racist people use to be "Politically correct". It's just racism, no question about it. The question of validity is weather or not you can knowingly employ a double standard on an issue in which you place great importance. Any facts that you hear basing "economic superiority" on race content can be ruled out as obviously tampered information. Tell me what rational person actually believes that a diverse workplace functions better than a homogeneous one, just based on it's race content? It's just something that racist people employ to "feel good" about the issue, it's almost laughable to hear that these people can actually take themselves seriously.
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  2. #62
    Lallygag Moderator Geoff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MetalWounds View Post
    This is where you lose me, it's not "counter discrimination" that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. That's just a euphemism that racist people use to be "Politically correct". It's just racism, no question about it. The question of validity is weather or not you can knowingly employ a double standard on an issue in which you place great importance. Any facts that you hear basing "economic superiority" on race content can be ruled out as obviously tampered information. Tell me what rational person actually believes that a diverse workplace functions better than a homogeneous one, just based on it's race content? It's just something that racist people employ to "feel good" about the issue, it's almost laughable to hear that these people can actually take themselves seriously.
    Right! And who really wants to be given a job, to fill a quota for a job they wouldn't otherwise get. Knowingly, and openly, that they wouldn't have got it, but they are getting it because they are black, or female, or disabled.

    Personally, I think these policies are illegal. They discriminate on the basis of race, religion or gender. So what if the discrimination is against the majority. As you say, it is a double standard, and it is racism. Not to mention hypocrisy of the highest order.

    I was recently handling a promotion for a female member of staff at my office, and the documentation for the mentoring programme said that it was of particular interest to female members of staff as it could help them get a promotion they wouldn't otherwise get. Ewww!

    The only way to get racism, and other discrimination to disappear is to stop judging by reference to differences that don't affect ability to perform the job. We'll get there eventually, but not by positively reinforcing the concept of racism and pretending it is just being politically correct.

  3. #63
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    The whole point is that no one should get an imposed advantage over someone else! This is a guiding principle. My "privileges" aren't due to discriminatory policies OF TODAY. If we were speaking about 50 years ago, then I'd wholeheartedly agree, but we're not. It is not fair to discriminate against any group of people, and it's completely unethical and illegal when the government is involved at all (i.e., state colleges). But it does suck when you have a minority (such as Asians or Jews) who are "overrepresented" at and, therefore, must be extra-gifted or must be of lesser means to get over an "underrepresented" minority. White men generally do fine in getting into college, but they can often run into problems when there. Ever go through college orientation? Some of the falsehoods and assertions they spout are absurd and offensive.

    At the same time, I also believe in freedom of association, and that you should be able to hire/fire/deal with only those people with whom you choose. A business or individual has every right to make their decisions in this regard. Discriminators in a free market are making irrational business decisions, and it always comes back to haunt them.
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  4. #64
    mrs disregard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    So how come intelligent design/creationism can't be taught alongside evolutionary theory in public schools? How would that be the state imposing church?



    So you think it is fair that homosexuality be taught as a form of diversity in public schools even though the alternative opinions are not allowed to be taught? What about children from homes who are taught that homosexuality is a sin, and then they go to school and are taught it is a form of diversity? Shouldn't they be taught both views so they can decide for themselves?

    Anyone who knows my position knows I'm no fan of the religious community, but don't they deserve as much free speech as anyone else?
    Teaching someone that homosexuality is "wrong" is very different from acknowledging that homosexuality is.

  5. #65
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MetalWounds View Post
    This is where you lose me, it's not "counter discrimination" that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. That's just a euphemism that racist people use to be "Politically correct". It's just racism, no question about it. The question of validity is weather or not you can knowingly employ a double standard on an issue in which you place great importance. Any facts that you hear basing "economic superiority" on race content can be ruled out as obviously tampered information. Tell me what rational person actually believes that a diverse workplace functions better than a homogeneous one, just based on it's race content? It's just something that racist people employ to "feel good" about the issue, it's almost laughable to hear that these people can actually take themselves seriously.
    I believe Meta put it best. Every man who lives is a hypocrite. The market and institutions discriminate, so in order to gain some equality, minorities must get the government to discriminate on their behalf. Call it illegal if you want, but the whites utilized the same system to discriminate for countless years. I like to think of it as what goes around comes around. Just be thankful you are not being forced to drink out of a different water fountain. And I base my evidence that diverse groups are economically superior on actual studies. I'll look them up and provide them for you when I have time. Diversity means more than just race. It means variation of gender, culture, etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
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  6. #66
    More human than human MetalWounds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    I believe Meta put it best. Every man who lives is a hypocrite. The market and institutions discriminate, so in order to gain some equality, minorities must get the government to discriminate on their behalf. Call it illegal if you want, but the whites utilized the same system to discriminate for countless years. I like to think of it as what goes around comes around. Just be thankful you are not being forced to drink out of a different water fountain. And I base my evidence that diverse groups are economically superior on actual studies. I'll look them up and provide them for you when I have time.
    This is essentially saying that "Two wrongs make a right", which while successfully employed by children toward playground ideals is functional, when we get into a cooperate world, or just the adult world for that matter, it is inexcusably wrong. Saying that a group is superior economically based only on it's racial diversity is laughable. You seem to have fallen victim to the manipulation of information commonly employed by people who have an erroneous point to prove.
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  7. #67
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MetalWounds View Post
    This is essentially saying that "Two wrongs make a right", which while successfully employed by children toward playground ideals is functional, when we get into a cooperate world, or just the adult world for that matter, it is inexcusably wrong.
    That is correct. Now if you would like to propose a system in which anti discrimination policies are not used, but does not leave white privilege unchecked then I would love to hear it. Otherwise, I think you need to get real. If you had not noticed, the adult world works very much like a childhood playground. If we get hit then we hit back (Afghanistan and Iraq War). If we don't like someone then we spread rumors about them (Propaganda and most of the American Media). If somebody has something we want then we treat them nice even if we don't like them (our dependence on foreign oil). And yes, our system is full of many cases where two wrongs aim to make a right. You are either an ideologist who fantasizes the world could work a certain way even when commons sense tells you otherwise or you are a realist who realizes that humans are always going to be in perpetual conflict because they all want to serve their own agendas

    Saying that a group is superior economically based only on it's racial diversity is laughable..
    Racial diversity alone, yes that would be laughable. Diversity of race, culture, gender, etc., its obvious why they would be economically superior. If you believe a homogeneous group performs better than a diverse one then I believe you are horribly deluded. Of course, I'm hoping you just didn't realize that I meant by "diversity". Making rather crude remarks like, "You seem to have fallen victim to the manipulation of information" without having even seen my sources indicates a certain amount of closed mindedness and intellectual weakness. I pity you if that is the case, because I am a very skeptical person when it comes to what I read and learn and it would seem you lack the capacity to even question yourself. In fact it almost seems like your thinking is on par with Social Darwinism and Nazi Germany.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
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  8. #68
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    There has been a huge influx of Indian people into my area in the last 10 years. The majority are Hindu, but there are some Sikhs and some Christians amongst them, as well.
    you are near philly, right? yes, Hburg has picked up a LOT of indians in the last ten years too. an incredible amount.

    The U.S. is better with this than many other countries, actually. Look at France. It's a Catholic country, but only 20-30% of the population are regular Mass attendees. And yet, they have tried to ban Muslim girls from wearing their headwraps.
    That's my ignorance then, thank you for the information. I just know the culture I have been immersed in, but I like to be informed if other places are better/worse/different.

    It's a matter of mindset, mostly. I actually tend to think that the majority of non-fundamentalist Christians would make sure that students of other religions would be free to express themselves, because they would flip out (and have) if the school tried to suppress Christian students.
    I don't know. Like I said, my subculture reveres people like James Dobson and tends to be suspicious of anyone not going by the Book.

    Sorry to derail this back to an "old topic" -- how on earth did we move from "religious/gay" to "white privilege?"
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

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  9. #69
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Sorry to derail this back to an "old topic" -- how on earth did we move from "religious/gay" to "white privilege?"
    I dunno. They are all stupid social constructs. They don't exist anywhere but in human perception and yet they are what divides our species. I love playing with them all, and even from both sides, because they only have as much meaning as we are willing to give them. It never ceases to amaze me how emotionally charged they get people, me included, even though the outcome in such discussions is negligible. All these concepts revolve around human ego. From the religious perspective, I find it hilarious because Pride and Inhospitality were the true sins that brought about the end of Sodom, and yet those are the very sins that individuals use to condemn one another, whether they be a different race, sexuality, religion, etc. Or even from the secular perspective where people seek to bring about equality by creating policies of forced inequality. Humans are truly hypocrites to the highest degree. How easily we forget that we are all made of the same shit.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
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  10. #70
    More human than human MetalWounds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    That is correct. Now if you would like to propose a system in which anti discrimination policies are not used, but does not leave white privilege unchecked then I would love to hear it. Otherwise, I think you need to get real. If you had not noticed, the adult world works very much like a childhood playground. If we get hit then we hit back (Afghanistan and Iraq War). If we don't like someone then we spread rumors about them (Propaganda and most of the American Media). If somebody has something we want then we treat them nice even if we don't like them (our dependence on foreign oil). And yes, our system is full of many cases where two wrongs aim to make a right. You are either an ideologist who fantasizes the world could work a certain way even when commons sense tells you otherwise or you are a realist who realizes that humans are always going to be in perpetual conflict because they all want to serve their own agendas



    Racial diversity alone, yes that would be laughable. Diversity of race, culture, gender, etc., its obvious why they would be economically superior. If you believe a homogeneous group performs better than a diverse one then I believe you are horribly deluded. Of course, I'm hoping you just didn't realize that I meant by "diversity". Making rather crude remarks like, "You seem to have fallen victim to the manipulation of information" without having even seen my sources indicates a certain amount of closed mindedness and intellectual weakness. I pity you if that is the case, because I am a very skeptical person when it comes to what I read and learn and it would seem you lack the capacity to even question yourself. In fact it almost seems like your thinking is on par with Social Darwinism and Nazi Germany.
    What I'm hearing in the first part of your argument is "The system is broken, but instead of fixing it, we should punish all that benefit" If your ideal world is one where we are all suffering equally, then you should read up on your communism. You'd like that.
    A wide variety of cultures genders, or whatever other discriminating tool you want to use to divide people is never going to change the income of the workplace. That is derived only from work ethic. I make no statement on which is superior. Only that race alone is not a factor. You're saying that based only on race, you can determine a workplace output, congratulations, you're a racist. So far I've not seen any credible information regarding the subject of workplace diversity and output, so I have go only on your statements, which are quite naive to say the least.

    It seems that we are derailing the thread from it's intent, so if you wish to continue this, perhaps a new thread would be the proper arena.
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