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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post
    You know, I won't sit here and say that the average black man in America has it just as good as the average white man. But I cannot stand by and be demonized for the circumstances of my birth and have my meager accomplishments denigrated because I'm supposed to have come by them easily. The differences you talk about in your post amount to an assertion that a man who has three limbs cut off is better off than a man who has all four cut off. Does he have it better? A little. But the larger point is that they're both crippled.
    Huh?

    My only point was that white men generally have it better and I got brushed off for having that point of view even though it is well substantiated. In fact, I find your choice of words to be incredibly ironic. White men feeling persecuted and dehumanized simply because of their skin color? Sounds more like the guilt of privilege to me. I also don't really get the analogy you were trying to express. I would sure as hell want one limb instead of none, especially if it were an arm with a hand. It would make all the difference in the world. At least the man with the arm has the capacity to defend himself. And I certainly don't see how that is relevant to white privilege and intolerance.

    And yes, it really does cheapen accomplishments when you realize that you have an inherent advantage over others. But that is reality. It should make you a little bit more appreciative of women and different races who are in the same position as you because chances are they had to work harder than you to get there.

    It alleviates my own guilt a great deal that there is anti discrimination laws out there that level the unequal playing field that a history of conquest and slavery has created. Of course, as I said before, there are those who think it is unequal to force people to give up some of their privilege.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
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  2. #52
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    Huh?

    My only point was that white men generally have it better and I got brushed off for having that point of view even though it is well substantiated. In fact, I find your choice of words to be incredibly ironic. White men feeling persecuted and dehumanized simply because of their skin color? Sounds more like the guilt of privilege to me. I also don't really get the analogy you were trying to express. I would sure as hell want one limb instead of none, especially if it were an arm with a hand. It would make all the difference in the world. At least the man with the arm has the capacity to defend himself. And I certainly don't see how that is relevant to white privilege and intolerance.

    And yes, it really does cheapen accomplishments when you realize that you have an inherent advantage over others. But that is reality. It should make you a little bit more appreciative of women and different races who are in the same position as you because chances are they had to work harder than you to get there.

    It alleviates my own guilt a great deal that there is anti discrimination laws out there that level the unequal playing field that a history of conquest and slavery has created. Of course, as I said before, there are those who think it is unequal to force people to give up some of their privilege.

    I feel absolutely no guilt about being a white man. None. No one should be beholden to the sins of ancestors that pre-date them by hundreds of years. If they were, every single person on Earth would be guilt-ridden and second-guessing themselves at all times, and that is no way to be.

    There is also a gigantic hole in the privilege argument. Should second-generation Asian immigrants be forced to give up the privileges their parents earned from coming to our country and earning them? If they shouldn't, the entire argument collapses.
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  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    I feel absolutely no guilt about being a white man. None. No one should be beholden to the sins of ancestors that pre-date them by hundreds of years. If they were, every single person on Earth would be guilt-ridden and second-guessing themselves at all times, and that is no way to be.
    Of course you don't have to feel guilt. The system of oppression and discrimination is already in place. You don't have to do anything to enjoy the benefits of white privilege because you inherited it from you forefathers.

    There is also a gigantic hole in the privilege argument. Should second-generation Asian immigrants be forced to give up the privileges their parents earned from coming to our country and earning them? If they shouldn't, the entire argument collapses.
    Um...your counterargument makes absolutely no sense. Why would anyone even need privilege based on their race? It should be that there is no privilege based on the social construct of race to be inherited. Many of the whites in the country continue to support that system because they are already on the top of it and get to determine what degree of privilege other racial groups get to enjoy. In fact you argument only confirms that as a white person you are perfectly comfortable with making other minority groups earn privilege rather than giving them equal footing as individuals. It seems your argument completely ignores the disparity that continues to exist, which I briefly mentioned in the stats I previously posted. No, you did not blow a hole in my argument, you only demonstrated your acceptance of an unjust racialization system. If this country were truly equal, then second generation Asian immigrants wouldn't have to inherit their parent's privilege, they would be judged and treated as individuals by both the market and government. Sadly, that isn't the case.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
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  4. #54
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    You've completely misinterpreted what I've said again. First off, the #1 best thing I've interpreted from my forefathers (besides looks, obviously ) was being born an American. That fact alone has guaranteed me a lifestyle superior to the vast majority of people on Earth. For that, I thank my forefathers who had little resources but a lot in the way of foresight and regard for their families.

    Secondly, my counterargument stands. If my Asian friends, whose parents emigrated from China, Taiwan, South Korea, Vietnam, etc. and have made middle-class or better lifestyles here, have better education than African-American children whose relatives have been here for centuries or Mexican immigrants who are still toiling at the lower end of the socioeconomic scale, should they be looked down upon or vilified? Absolutely not. Everyone should get a shot at success at life, and it's not fair that many get a shitty education or have absentee parents. But no one should feel guilty about their own success if they've earned it honestly, and I think that I have earned what I have so far in life. I don't know if you feel the same way.

    Guilt exists to tell YOU if YOU have done something wrong. I've made more than my share of mistakes in life, but oppressing people with less than I have isn't one of them.
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  5. #55
    Courage is immortality Valiant's Avatar
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    I have a split opinion on this matter. I think it is great that religion is questioned and the world is becoming more and more secularized. But religion is also good for inherently mean/bad people and the ones whose minds are too primitive to grasp the infinity of the universe and such things. It makes bad people act good, just so that they might get into heaven. And it provides explanations for things their/our minds simply cannot comprehend.
    But it is also a really crappy thing, causing wars (and famine, racism etc.)
    Personally I think the homosexuals should be left alone. I am not saying I think it's natural (opinion) but that's probably because I grew up in a pretty traditional family and got strong moral- and traditional values. And the thought of getting it in the ass or why anybody would want to do that to another guy is very, very creepy. Almost as bad as whacking off to rotten.com But i'm against all forms of persecusion, and they should be allowed to do gross stuff as much as they want to, because it doesn't hurt anyone else, and they seem to enjoy being gay

    Mightier than the tread of marching armies is the power of an idea whose time has come

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by YourLocalJesus View Post
    I have a split opinion on this matter. I think it is great that religion is questioned and the world is becoming more and more secularized. But religion is also good for inherently mean/bad people and the ones whose minds are too primitive to grasp the infinity of the universe and such things. It makes bad people act good, just so that they might get into heaven. And it provides explanations for things their/our minds simply cannot comprehend.
    But it is also a really crappy thing, causing wars (and famine, racism etc.)
    Personally I think the homosexuals should be left alone. I am not saying I think it's natural (opinion) but that's probably because I grew up in a pretty traditional family and got strong moral- and traditional values. And the thought of getting it in the ass or why anybody would want to do that to another guy is very, very creepy. Almost as bad as whacking off to rotten.com But i'm against all forms of persecusion, and they should be allowed to do gross stuff as much as they want to, because it doesn't hurt anyone else, and they seem to enjoy being gay

    It's all about respecting someone else's beliefs and personal behavior, whether you agree with it or not. I'm not religious now, nor am I gay. But there are people who are, and they don't deserve to be made to feel like less of a person.
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  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    You've completely misinterpreted what I've said again. First off, the #1 best thing I've interpreted from my forefathers (besides looks, obviously ) was being born an American. That fact alone has guaranteed me a lifestyle superior to the vast majority of people on Earth. For that, I thank my forefathers who had little resources but a lot in the way of foresight and regard for their families.

    Secondly, my counterargument stands. If my Asian friends, whose parents emigrated from China, Taiwan, South Korea, Vietnam, etc. and have made middle-class or better lifestyles here, have better education than African-American children whose relatives have been here for centuries or Mexican immigrants who are still toiling at the lower end of the socioeconomic scale, should they be looked down upon or vilified? Absolutely not. Everyone should get a shot at success at life, and it's not fair that many get a shitty education or have absentee parents. But no one should feel guilty about their own success if they've earned it honestly, and I think that I have earned what I have so far in life. I don't know if you feel the same way.

    Guilt exists to tell YOU if YOU have done something wrong. I've made more than my share of mistakes in life, but oppressing people with less than I have isn't one of them.
    You seem to be talking about something entirely different from what I am talking about. Here are my arguments.

    1. America was built by white people forcing natives off land they had occupied for centuries and off the backs of slave laborers imported from Africa.
    2. Whites dehumanized and discriminated against other racial groups long after slavery ended, creating economic and social disparities that exist even today.
    3. The market and government of this country are currently discriminating against other racial groups.
    4. White males are the privileged group in this country.
    5. Chances are that individuals from other groups have to work harder to hold the same position as white males in this country.
    6. Although no white males in existence today actually created the initial economic and social inequalities faced by different racial groups, they still enjoy their place as the most privileged group in this country and chances are they did not have to work as hard as other groups to get where they are.
    7. Many white individuals alive today, refuse to acknowledge that they are privileged and argue against anti discrimination policies which attempt to correct some of the social and economic disparity that was created from centuries of whites oppressing and discriminating against other racial groups.

    So I don't really give a damn if you feel guilty for being privileged or not, just acknowledge that you are.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    You seem to be talking about something entirely different from what I am talking about. Here are my arguments.

    1. America was built by white people forcing natives off land they had occupied for centuries and off the backs of slave laborers imported from Africa.
    2. Whites dehumanized and discriminated against other racial groups long after slavery ended, creating economic and social disparities that exist even today.
    3. The market and government of this country are currently discriminating against other racial groups.
    4. White males are the privileged group in this country.
    5. Chances are that individuals from other groups have to work harder to hold the same position as white males in this country.
    6. Although no white males in existence today actually created the initial economic and social inequalities faced by different racial groups, they still enjoy their place as the most privileged group in this country and chances are they did not have to work as hard as other groups to get where they are.
    7. Many white individuals alive today, refuse to acknowledge that they are privileged and argue against anti discrimination policies which attempt to correct some of the social and economic disparity that was created from centuries of whites oppressing and discriminating against other racial groups.

    So I don't really give a damn if you feel guilty for being privileged or not, just acknowledge that you are.

    In some ways I am, in other ways, I am not. If that isn't good enough for you, you're screwed, because A) that is the truth; and B) I'm not going to assuage you if you believe something else. People should be taken on their own merits, period. If someone comes from a humble background and succeeds, then that is even more to their credit, but their background implies absolutely nothing when it comes to me.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  9. #59
    Lallygag Moderator Geoff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    You seem to be talking about something entirely different from what I am talking about. Here are my arguments.

    1. America was built by white people forcing natives off land they had occupied for centuries and off the backs of slave laborers imported from Africa.
    2. Whites dehumanized and discriminated against other racial groups long after slavery ended, creating economic and social disparities that exist even today.
    3. The market and government of this country are currently discriminating against other racial groups.
    4. White males are the privileged group in this country.
    5. Chances are that individuals from other groups have to work harder to hold the same position as white males in this country.
    6. Although no white males in existence today actually created the initial economic and social inequalities faced by different racial groups, they still enjoy their place as the most privileged group in this country and chances are they did not have to work as hard as other groups to get where they are.
    7. Many white individuals alive today, refuse to acknowledge that they are privileged and argue against anti discrimination policies which attempt to correct some of the social and economic disparity that was created from centuries of whites oppressing and discriminating against other racial groups.

    So I don't really give a damn if you feel guilty for being privileged or not, just acknowledge that you are.
    So what? Should we deliberately be prejudiced against white males? Isn't that racism as well?

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    but their background implies absolutely nothing when it comes to me.
    What an interesting contradiction. If that were true then why would you point out that it was "white" people who were persecuted in the university administrations? Why would it even matter to you since you argue that people should be judged based on their individual merits? It sounds to me like you have no problem when it comes to arguing about white people being discriminated against, but when we are talking about white privilege in relation to other racial groups it is suddenly, "People should be taken by their own merits."

    Meh, it doesn't matter. It seems your point is that race alone doesn't dictate who an individual is, and that is a point I definitely agree on.

    So what? Should we deliberately be prejudiced against white males? Isn't that racism as well?
    Not at all. Just an objective observation of white privilege in the United States. Of course there are those who argue that anti discrimination policies are reverse racism, but since the institutional policies already clearly discriminate based on race, I think anti discrimination policies can be considered counter discrimination. Not to mention that diverse work forces are proven to be economically superior to homogeneous ones.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

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