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  1. #31
    Lallygag Moderator Geoff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zergling View Post
    Issues with creationists slows down science as well. Ice ages and meteor impacts took longer to be accepted as possibly effecting the planet thanks to resistance to "catastrophic" ideas, which in general would have come from arguing against Noah's flood and things like that in the bible.
    Oh yes, I was reading about that. The problem is often, it seems, that people want a "simple answer". Examples : would be "everything happens gradually!" (evolution). "God made it happen all at once!" etc. Seems to be quite difficult to get people to accept compound theories eg most things happen gradually but some things happen quickly. It sorta disturbs their simplistic "I solved the problem" viewpoint.

  2. #32
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    ...And the difference for this is largely cultural. Whereas you were founded by Religious Dissenters, we were founded by the Enlightenment two hundred years later.

    So this has left you with constant tension between the Religious and the Secular, while we are quite relaxed about religion. To us you seem quite uptight about religion while we are more laid back.

    I would also like to say that the religious template that formed you also formed your Secularism. So to us, your religiosity and your secularism seem to be cut from the same cloth.
    Nice points.

    i think there is also a problem with getting immersed in one's subculture and not realizing (or caring to realize) there are other ways to view the same thing. Various sects feel like they "own" Christianity and don't realize they're actually just part of a wide spectrum without any more basis for their beliefs than other sects. America can actually be very insular; most of the diversity seems to come through media packaging, so it's still being targeted and "sold" to the populace. Especially nowadays, it's very possible for a niche group to develop its own little insular world and forget their place in the larger scheme.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seanan View Post
    Well, yeh... its done in college after all in certain majors or electively. Kids are much more informed today due to technology and making this whole area "untouchable" creates some serious consequences for them in the area of trust. I mean even sex is being address more in depth and openly than it has been historically. The taboo on studying religions at least to the degree of sex education is making children suspect. I think its adding to the idea kids have of adults being ignorant, silly and/or prejudiced... why trust them?
    This feeling has generally been around with each generation, I think... but it's highly exacerbated now because the adults no longer control the dissemination of information. Kids and young adults now (due mainly to the Internet, but just communications in general) are no longer trapped in their own microcosm if they want to expand.

    30-40 years ago, you had to work for it -- you had to either study the foreign culture, or travel to that country, to really have your worldview shaken up. Now people can find alternate views at their fingertips. I suppose in that way the Internet is good; it just hasn't really equipped people with a sense of discretion and evaluation, it still tends to be a sensory bombardment with all info given equal weight and people have to discern for themselves what is more accurate and less... but still, it means the younger generations don't have to go through the adult generation any longer to formulate a picture of the world.

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff View Post
    Oh yes, I was reading about that. The problem is often, it seems, that people want a "simple answer". Examples : would be "everything happens gradually!" (evolution). "God made it happen all at once!" etc. Seems to be quite difficult to get people to accept compound theories eg most things happen gradually but some things happen quickly. It sorta disturbs their simplistic "I solved the problem" viewpoint.
    Jah, I agree. But we all know some people find it hard to deal with ambiguity and feel much better when they have closure. (I guess the important point is how much of the closure is just articulated on the surface vs how willing are they underneath to truly consider new ideas even if they look more rigid outwardly.)
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

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  3. #33
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    I don't think kids should have to leave their religion outside the schoolhouse door, but I do not like the idea of religion being imposed on children at school. I mean, if I was an atheist or a Muslim how would I feel about my children being forced to sing "Away in a Manger?" I think I would probably not be too thrilled with that. How would I, as a Protestant, feel if my kids were expected to pray to Mary? Not happy. Now, why would I feel justified in doing to other people's children what I would not want done to my own?

    I'm not totally sold on ID or evolution exclusively, I mean, I do believe in an intelligent designer, I do believe in micro-evolution, and I don't rule out that God could have used the evolutionary process in creation. I honestly do not trust either side because they all seem so invested in their views. But I don't mind my kids learning evolution in school. They need to know it for SATs, college, etc.

    I wouldn't mind comparative religions classes or elective religious classes that were truly voluntary. I think religious clubs ought to be given the same rights and privileges as other school clubs. I don't think religious architectural features ought to be removed from historic state buildings, but I don't think new ones should be put up unless an effort is made to give equal space to other sacred texts.

    As far as exposure to homosexuality, etc, I think if you are going to be doing a broad and thorough sex education class, you have to include it. Parents should be given the opportunity to not have their children participate or to maybe be offered an alternative class if possible. I'm not sure why explaining the mechanics, risks, safety precautions, etc can't be kind of philosophically neutral, but maybe I'm naive. I don't think learning about homosexuality in school is going to turn a straight kid gay any more than learning about heterosexuality turns gay kids straight. *shrug*

    I think there are some cases of religious persecution, but this often has to do with overzealous enforcement/misunderstanding of laws governing separation of church and state or sometimes misapplying anti-gang rules. Stuff like that.
    Those things should be fought and fought hard because they can set precedents that could later become freedom-eroding laws.

    I think if Christians want their religious rights protected, they need to work to ensure them for people who have different convictions than they do, just as they would their own. We of all people ought to understand that you reap what you sow.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  4. #34

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    Children are basically forced into religion by their parents. Religion is something someone should choose as an adult. If you're raised to believe that you are going to a fiery pit of hell just for taking a candy bar, it only instills fear in people. Then once a person tries to overcome the absurdity of those beliefs they are left with guilt and indecision. Religion should definitely be left out of schools.

    And religious institutions do deserve to be attacked because that's all they have done to others. Religions attack other religions- what makes it any different? They all hide behind their beliefs. "God wants me to raise 16 million dollars or he will kill me" Yeah right.

    It's completely illogical to believe in some of the crap these religions preach. They can't even get their own shit together. ...If we can't explain it, just say god did it.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    Would it be fair to impose the teaching of evolutionary theory in schools?
    The theory of evolution is one of the most evidentially supported theories in science. It would be a disservice to students for them *not* to learn the theory of evolution just as much as it would be for them not to learn geometrical proofs, expository writing, grammar, syntax, literary analysis...

    Public schools need to be secular, by law.
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  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainChick View Post
    The theory of evolution is one of the most evidentially supported theories in science. It would be a disservice to students for them *not* to learn the theory of evolution just as much as it would be for them not to learn geometrical proofs, expository writing, grammar, syntax, literary analysis...

    Public schools need to be secular, by law.
    I would agree with this, but with the caveat that there are instances of teachers and school administrators admonishing or preventing some religious students from doing projects on Jesus or other religious figures, and prayer being "a disruption" in the class or sporting events. Prayer over the loudspeaker = no, prayer by a group of students = yes. The Constitution is specific about free exercise of religion when it comes to the government.

    Also, literary analysis isn't being taught particularly well right now, at any level of schooling. Hell, I went to a $12,000 a year private school for high school, and they didn't even prepare us for college-level paper writing. I liked to write and had a knack for all things language-related, but many of my classmates did not. I had to do peer review things in Intellectual Heritage, and there were very bright students who couldn't string together an intelligible paragraph.
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  7. #37
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    @ everyone

    If you watched the video you would see that the exposure to homosexuality I was discussing was not being taught in a sexual education class. It was being taught at the elementary level as a form of diversity. Or as the person who posted the video suggested, "Brainwashing children." I want to know how people feel about that. Is that a form of persecuting religion?
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
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  8. #38
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    If you watched the video you would see that the exposure to homosexuality I was discussing was not being taught in a sexual education class. It was being taught at the elementary level as a form of diversity. Or as the person who posted the video suggested, "Brainwashing children." I want to know how people feel about that. Is that a form of persecuting religion?
    I don't know.

    It's unavoidable. One person's immorality is another person's diversity.

    It's not much different than acknowledging that for a woman to choose an abortion means the death of a baby to some, and for a baby to have life might mean denial of a family deciding what is best for them.

    Honestly? I think people are too damn concerned about how they might be "being oppressed" by others and should instead be working to build bridges with those they're having issues with.

    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    I would agree with this, but with the caveat that there are instances of teachers and school administrators admonishing or preventing some religious students from doing projects on Jesus or other religious figures, and prayer being "a disruption" in the class or sporting events. Prayer over the loudspeaker = no, prayer by a group of students = yes. The Constitution is specific about free exercise of religion when it comes to the government.
    I'm fine with all this... if Christians don't complain about people of religious beliefs they strongly disapprove of having the same privileges and rights as they claim they should have.

    But for some reason, I don't think that will fly.

    Honestly, if buddhism and hinduism and other beliefs involving what Christians deem to be pagan gods were allowed openly in the school system around "their kids," they'd probably flip out completely and pull their kids into private schools.
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  9. #39
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    The elementary school video was a private elementary school, so I don't see what the problem would be.

    If a ball team wants to make free hats for kids day and gay day on the same day, that's their deal. I think it's a bad PR move and suspect somebody probably got chewed out, if not fired for planning it that way. But nobody made the parents bring their children or made them stay once they found out. If they will expose their kids to something they consider offensive for something as small as a ball cap . . . I guess I don't respect the strength of their convictions.

    I'll finish watching the Ben Stein clip and maybe comment on it later.

    Edit: I do not have enough information on the persecution of creationists/IDers in academia, etc to have an opinion. I would like to see the movie.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  10. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    Very nice post Jennifer.

    Okay, a question for Victor and Dark Razor.

    Would you guys be okay with religion taught as its own class, not within science classrooms?
    Which religion though? Catholicism? What would be taught in class? What if it was Hinduism, Astrology or Scientology? Then would you be satisfied? Probably not, as you probably want YOUR religion taught.

    Christians persecuted? You cannot run for president without saying your Christian. Can you imagine a presidential candidate saying he was atheist? Christians do not know what persecution is, at least not in the US.

    Intelligent design, is not science, it's a retroactive explanation for evolution to make Creationists, not seem completely insane when speaking to people with a brain. You can easily make an argument that a dragon created intelligent design, but that' is not how the ID people see it. They see it as proof of THEIR Christian God creating all of this, which has as much credibility as any other deity or folk myth, being the intelligent DESIGNER.

    Which is not what the ID people believe. They just KNOW it's their god that designed it all, without any evidence of the sort - does this sound like science?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Honestly, if buddhism and hinduism and other beliefs involving what Christians deem to be pagan gods were allowed openly in the school system around "their kids," they'd probably flip out completely and pull their kids into private schools.
    Of course they would. Some of these nutjobs, homeschool their kids to keep them away from biology teachers. Can you imagine if they were teaching the Muslim or Buddhist faiths in public schools? There would be a shitstorm.
    Last edited by meanlittlechimp; 05-07-2008 at 09:50 PM.

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