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  1. #21
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    Hm...a good point.

    I noticed that neither you nor Victor mentioned anything about homosexuality being taught in schools or forced on children at public events. Do you find that to be a form of persecuting religion?
    At school we had specific classes to teach about sexuality. And part of that was of course teaching about homosexuality.

    We were taught that gays and lesbians were our brothers and sisters who had been persecuted in the past and who were persecuted in the present, particularly in some non-Western countries.

    The religious beliefs of those who persecute gays and lesbians was explained to us. And the psychology of those who persecute gays and lesbians was also explained to us.

    And the history of gay and lesbian liberation was also taught as well as the struggles of today, such as Civil Unions.

    So at school we were taught about homosexuality just as we were taught about religion = and left to make up our own minds.

    V.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    Very nice post Jennifer.

    Okay, a question for Victor and Dark Razor.

    Would you guys be okay with religion taught as its own class, not within science classrooms?
    Yes. Religion is taught here in its own class.

    Religion is taught here in its own class in both Public and Private schools.

    However this class is voluntary so no one is forced to learn about religion or a particular religion.

    And the difference for this is largely cultural. Whereas you were founded by Religious Dissenters, we were founded by the Enlightenment two hundred years later.

    So this has left you with constant tension between the Religious and the Secular, while we are quite relaxed about religion.

    To us you seem quite uptight about religion while we are more laid back.

    I would also like to say that the religious template that formed you also formed your Secularism.

    So to us, your religiousity and your secularism seem to be cut from the same cloth.

    So although you fight each other like cat and dogs, it is all over the difference between spuds and potatoes.

    V.

  3. #23
    Rats off to ya! Mort Belfry's Avatar
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    As one group becomes more popular, those who were once popular will become ridiculed. So just as long as the right group is persecuted, society wins.
    Why do we always come here?

    I guess we'll never know.

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    To have to watch this show.

  4. #24

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    I see the entire debate as a tragedy, because there are a panoply of opinions in the middle that do not see evolution and religion as an either/or proposition. Somehow, opinion tends to coalesce around the opposite poles of Christian fundamentalist creationism and the equally fervent religion of empirical science.

    I find ID to be a fascinating concept that, while not empirical in its origin, is entirely reasonable. A god or prime mover is as good an explanation as any for the origin of the universe. It's a concept that explains "why" and complements science, which is better at explaining "what". Unfortunately, ID has been entirely subsumed within fundamentalist dogma and therefore has never been evaluated free of religious context, stripping it of any intellectual credibility.

    I believe that only science should be taught in science class, and so I am fully in favor of an evolution-only science curriculum. At the same time, I don't think that because ID hasn't been empirically proven that it has no place in education. Perhaps the best showcase for ID is in a philosophy or social science curriculum. Sadly, this will never (and should never) happen as long as the main proponents of ID remain Christian conservatives who are looking to bastardize it as a toehold into the public schools.
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  5. #25
    Lallygag Moderator Geoff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    Very nice post Jennifer.

    Okay, a question for Victor and Dark Razor.

    Would you guys be okay with religion taught as its own class, not within science classrooms?
    If I may answer this, too. Yes, absolutely.

    I had a separate religious studies class at school. It taught about the history of religion, current beliefs around the world. So, it looked at judaism, christianity, muslim faiths, historical stuff like the early development of religion, mithraism etc.

    I found it a useful foundation to understanding humanity (or at least attempting to).

    It was not an attempt to convince people to blindly believe, it was done to introduce information about important issues for humanity. I suppose it was mostly a sort of social philosophy class.

    Kept quite separate from science. But then, in the UK we don't get terribly excited about religion.

  6. #26
    Senior Member sriv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    I can say that Creationism is not taught in Catholic schools here mainly because Creationism is not a doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church.

    V.
    Ok, I must be wrong. Fundamentalist schools would be forced to teach it however.
    "Fundamentalist institutions include Pensacola Christian College, and Bob Jones University, but classically Fundamentalist schools such as Fuller Theological Seminary and Biola University no longer describe themselves as Fundamentalist, although in the broad sense described by this article they are fundamentalist (better, Evangelical) in their perspective. (The forerunner to Biola U. - the Bible Institute of Los Angeles - was founded under the financial patronage of Lyman Stewart, with his brother Milton, underwrote the publication of a series of 12 books jointly entitled The Fundamentals between 1909 and 1920.)" - Wikipedia
    Reyson: ...If you were to change your ways, I'm sure we could rebuild the relationship the two of us once shared.

    Naesala: Oh no, that I could never do. You see, humans are essential to the fulfillment of my ambitions.

    Reyson: You've changed, Naesala. If this is the path you've chosen, I've nothing left to say.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    Very nice post Jennifer.

    Okay, a question for Victor and Dark Razor.

    Would you guys be okay with religion taught as its own class, not within science classrooms?
    Well, yeh... its done in college after all in certain majors or electively. Kids are much more informed today due to technology and making this whole area "untouchable" creates some serious consequences for them in the area of trust. I mean even sex is being address more in depth and openly than it has been historically. The taboo on studying religions at least to the degree of sex education is making children suspect. I think its adding to the idea kids have of adults being ignorant, silly and/or prejudiced... why trust them?

  8. #28
    a white iris elfinchilde's Avatar
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    just an outsider's perspective:

    in my country, science and religion are taught separately in schools. freedom of worship is a statute in our laws.

    So science classes are purely about science; whereas religion is addressed in higher level classes (college level), in philosophy of religion, for instance.

    World religions are taught in lower level classes as part of civics/ethics education. There's equal emphasis on the four major religions (christianity, buddhism, islam and hinduism). So no matter what faith (or faithless!) you are, you gain an understanding of all the religions.

    Meanwhile, there are schools from elementary level onwards that are focused on different faiths, eg, convent schools (where i came from), taoist/buddhist schools etcetc. But these schools have never forced their faiths onto their students. In fact, they accept students from all religions.

    The focus essentially is on embracing religion in a secular way. Moderates being the way to go, not fundamentalism.

    Fundamentalism of any sort is usually frowned upon; altho, there sadly appears to be a gradual shift towards fundamental christianity/islam in the population now.

    to me, the study of the two should be ideally kept separate. Holistically, they seek to address the same question, the meaning of life, and humanity. but their approaches are very different. To mix the two would just force pigeonholing. It'd be like asking a strong T to be an F, or a strong I to continually be an E, and vice versa.

    it would likely just be counterproductive. Perhaps the best attitude to have is one of openness and tolerance. Am surprised the issue of evolution theory is such a major thing in the US, actually. It's a non-issue here.
    You gave me hyacinths first a year ago;
    They called me the hyacinth girl.
    Yet when we came back, late, from the Hyacinth garden,
    Your arms full, and your hair wet, I could not
    Speak, and my eyes failed, I was neither
    Living nor dead, and I knew nothing,
    Looking into the heart of light, the silence.

    --T.S Eliot, The Wasteland

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by elfinchilde View Post
    Perhaps the best attitude to have is one of openness and tolerance. Am surprised the issue of evolution theory is such a major thing in the US, actually. It's a non-issue here.
    Those are qualities the average American is not known for and becoming increasingly so.

  10. #30
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    I find ID to be a fascinating concept that, while not empirical in its origin, is entirely reasonable. A god or prime mover is as good an explanation as any for the origin of the universe. It's a concept that explains "why" and complements science, which is better at explaining "what". Unfortunately, ID has been entirely subsumed within fundamentalist dogma and therefore has never been evaluated free of religious context, stripping it of any intellectual credibility.
    Issues with creationists slows down science as well. Ice ages and meteor impacts took longer to be accepted as possibly effecting the planet thanks to resistance to "catastrophic" ideas, which in general would have come from arguing against Noah's flood and things like that in the bible.

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