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  1. #141
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    I think you are arbitrarily redefining persecution.
    "Persecution is the active, systematic mistreatment of an individual or group by another group or individual."
    Note there is no proviso as to the size of either group. Hence how the rich can and have persecuted the poor even though they were outnumbered.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    No, there was countless numbers of individuals and groups that were active in the black community for decades before the civil rights movement took off. What changed is they were brought together into a single movement.
    That seems to be a singularly strange occurrence, to my mind at least. The difference being with religions is that there will be no movement as one as each feels compelled to mark out their territory and deride the others. Besides I don't think that religion as a whole can be persecuted without persecuting almost every person to some degree or another. Though having thought about it further I could well be wrong on that score...
    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    Without knowing who the persecutors are, how do you expect me to comment on that? Were they visitors in a foreign country where they were the minority?
    The persecutors were often small minded people who had found something to target in others to make themselves feel a little better. Strangely (considering associations) it was most often the more racially orientated national front type who'd do the persecuting.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    Any small minded person can persecute someone else for something. But the point you contested and the one I was making is that only the dominant group can effectively persecute against minority groups. Minority groups cannot effectively persecute the dominant group.
    This is probably some extension which you have made to the definition, a qualifying factor which continues to support the stereotype of persecution.

    Whilst I agree that in most cases it is ineffective I don't see how someone's capacity to be effective at persecution makes them any less persecutors.

    Whilst someone who can't figure out a revolving door and gets stuck outside is probably not considered a bank robber the one who gets stuck in the time locked safe is, even though they are extremely inefficient at it and managed to rob nothing.

    Further to the argument of minorities persecuting others, I think you are equating power with number and also thinking that the majority are in power in all areas. It is possible for the majority to be persecuted in one arena whilst not in another because of the shifts in power.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  2. #142
    Senior Member Dom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo
    Any small minded person can persecute someone else for something. But the point you contested and the one I was making is that only the dominant group can effectively persecute against minority groups. Minority groups cannot effectively persecute the dominant group.
    A couple of ideas that may help;

    People from minority groups can persecute individuals are small groups from the dominant group, or where they have a localised majority.

    Secondly the Dominant group need not be a majority group, just a group with enough cohesion and resources to hold sway over others.

    Also were the Majority group has a pluraistic and tolerant attitude, minority groups are able to extract disproportionate leniance.

    As an example, in the UK we have an established church (Church of England, Anglican (I think you call them epistcostal or something), they are a christian demonination. I you wanted to build a new building as a house of worship in almost any recognised religeon you will almost certainly receive permission, if you want to build and uptodate building to use to worship the christian god, you will be refused (aparently a falling down, medieval building, that you are not permitted to modernise should be good enough to reaching a 21st century generation!)

    Just some thoughts...

  3. #143
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Default Paranoia is Psychological Preparation to Attack

    Paranoia is the unrealistic fear of persecution.

    But how can you know you are paranoid when your whole country regards the Government from a paranoid perspective.

    So if everyone is paranoid, then no one is paranoid.

    And if everyone is paranoid we arm each and everyone of us with the right to bear arms - we become a gun culture.

    And if anyone crosses us, we take them to Court - we become a litigious society.

    And like all paranoids we want to be loved - so if anyone objects to our foreign policy, we ask, with a straight face, why do they hate us so.

    Paranoia is a very attractive option because it provides a simple solution to a complex problem.

    But never forget that paranoia is psychological preparation to attack.

    Victor.

  4. #144
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Paranoia is the unrealistic fear of persecution.

    But how can you know you are paranoid when your whole country regards the Government from a paranoid perspective.

    So if everyone is paranoid, then no one is paranoid.

    And if everyone is paranoid we arm each and everyone of us with the right to bear arms - we become a gun culture.

    And if anyone crosses us, we take them to Court - we become a litigious society.

    And like all paranoids we want to be loved - so if anyone objects to our foreign policy, we ask, with a straight face, why do they hate us so.

    Paranoia is a very attractive option because it provides a simple solution to a complex problem.

    But never forget that paranoia is psychological preparation to attack.

    Victor.
    Paranoia is a form of big headedness. After all why would they be after you?
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  5. #145
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Paranoia is a form of big headedness. After all why would they be after you?
    I am a Child of God and Satan tempts me every day.

    But if you give me any trouble, Xander, I will send you to Coventry.

    V.

  6. #146
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    I am a Child of God and Satan tempts me every day.

    But if you give me any trouble, Xander, I will send you to Coventry.

    V.
    Do I advocate the wrong side?
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  7. #147
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dom View Post
    A couple of ideas that may help;

    People from minority groups can persecute individuals are small groups from the dominant group, or where they have a localised majority.

    Secondly the Dominant group need not be a majority group, just a group with enough cohesion and resources to hold sway over others.

    Also were the Majority group has a pluraistic and tolerant attitude, minority groups are able to extract disproportionate leniance.
    Thank you. I was having trouble getting those points across.

    I don't know why Xander thought I meant the "majority" when I've always referred to it as the "dominant group" and he has referred to it as the "majority".

    It's also very difficult to explain to some people how a group can actively persecute against members of another group simply by maintaining the unequal status quo. Some people can only percieve of persecution as active hate groups or small minded individuals. They don't understand that if the system is already unfairly set up in their favor, then persecution is only a matter of ignoring that they have the privilege in the system and making sure nothing changes.

    Persecution: persistent mistreatment of an individual/group by another group

    Nothing in the definition about it being "active." It can be passive-aggressive, and very indirect.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  8. #148
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    Thank you. I was having trouble getting those points across.

    I don't know why Xander thought I meant the "majority" when I've always referred to it as the "dominant group" and he has referred to it as the "majority".

    It's also very difficult to explain to some people how a group can actively persecute against members of another group simply by maintaining the unequal status quo. Some people can only percieve of persecution as active hate groups or small minded individuals. They don't understand that if the system is already unfairly set up in their favor, then persecution is only a matter of ignoring that they have the privilege in the system and making sure nothing changes.

    Persecution: persistent mistreatment of an individual/group by another group

    Nothing in the definition about it being "active." It can be passive-aggressive, and very indirect.
    You make a good point here. An individual or group can "actively" do something without consciously doing it. However, when it comes to assigning guilt or liability to someone or something, consciousness is a determining factor. Someone could do something injurious through absolutely no fault of their own. The mens rea is necessary to establishing guilt.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  9. #149
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    Thank you. I was having trouble getting those points across.

    I don't know why Xander thought I meant the "majority" when I've always referred to it as the "dominant group" and he has referred to it as the "majority".
    Errm... details. Yeah I'm an N... that's a good excuse
    Whoops.. sorry.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    It's also very difficult to explain to some people how a group can actively persecute against members of another group simply by maintaining the unequal status quo. Some people can only percieve of persecution as active hate groups or small minded individuals. They don't understand that if the system is already unfairly set up in their favor, then persecution is only a matter of ignoring that they have the privilege in the system and making sure nothing changes.
    This is where I see a danger. Is making sure nothing changes merely languishing in their control, such I could forgive as we all do that, or is it keeping the pressure up to keep "them" down?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    Persecution: persistent mistreatment of an individual/group by another group

    Nothing in the definition about it being "active." It can be passive-aggressive, and very indirect.
    Another problem, passive and indirect "action" is most often chinese whispers. How do you prove conclusively that people are deliberately taking action by inaction? I'm familiar with people being judged by what they do but if it's also going to be on what they don't do then this is going to get complex!!
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

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