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  1. #131
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    I hope you rendered this subject unconscious with a large hammer stating on the striking head "Don't bore me with details".

    That definition of persecution sounds terribly convenient to support her theory.
    Think about it. The moment the dominant group can turn around and say that everyone is persecuted, including themselves, then they can start forming justifications for persecuting other groups. The difference being that there aren't any major consequences when other groups hold prejudice for the dominant group because the dominant group doesn't lose any of its entitlement or privilege, but there can be and often is major consequences when the dominant group holds prejudice for other groups.

    My professor had a funny story that went along with her explanation. While checking out of a room at a hotel, the professor was standing by the front desk when a housekeeper came down and reported to the manager that a room, which had been rented by a couple American Indian kids, had been trashed. The manager went up and checked and came back down to the front desk. He then loudly proclaimed, "That is the last time I rent to Indians!" The professor found this funny and asked the manager, "Have you ever had a bunch of white kids rent a room and trash it?" To which the manager replied, "Yes." And the professor then asked, "Then why do you still rent rooms to white people?"

    Can you see the difference?

    Can an American Indian who manages a hotel in America declare that he will no longer rent to white people? That hotel would probably go bankrupt very quickly if he did.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
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  2. #132
    Lallygag Moderator Geoff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    Think about it. The moment the dominant group can turn around and say that everyone is persecuted, including themselves, then they can start forming justifications for persecuting other groups. The difference being that there aren't any major consequences when other groups hold prejudice for the dominant group because the dominant group doesn't lose any of its entitlement or privilege, but there can be and often is major consequences when the dominant group holds prejudice for other groups.

    My professor had a funny story that went along with her explanation. While checking out of a room at a hotel, the professor was standing by the front desk when a housekeeper came down and reported to the manager that a room, which had been rented by a couple American Indian kids, had been trashed. The manager went up and checked and came back down to the front desk. He then loudly proclaimed, "That is the last time I rent to Indians!" The professor found this funny and asked the manager, "Have you ever had a bunch of white kids rent a room and trash it?" To which the manager replied, "Yes." And the professor then asked, "Then why do you still rent rooms to white people?"

    Can you see the difference?

    Can an American Indian who manages a hotel in America declare that he will no longer rent to white people? That hotel would probably go bankrupt very quickly if he did.
    The difficulty here is with over simplication. Ivy isn't just a "christian" she is a christian of a particular sect, and as such can be persecuted for her minority brand of christianity, by one of the other sects. Indeed, this is very common throughout religious history. Even within a major world centralised religion (at least, sorta) like catholicism, it has schisms, and the persecution of sects and all. Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition! (which to me is one of the most obvious examples of religious persecution in history and it happened to white christians by other white christians).

  3. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff View Post
    The difficulty here is with over simplication. Ivy isn't just a "christian" she is a christian of a particular sect, and as such can be persecuted for her minority brand of christianity, by one of the other sects. Indeed, this is very common throughout religious history. Even within a major world centralised religion (at least, sorta) like catholicism, it has schisms, and the persecution of sects and all. Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition! (which to me is one of the most obvious examples of religious persecution in history and it happened to white christians by other white christians).
    I asked Ivy that question.

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...3-post121.html

    Her argument is because liberal academia is the dominant group, it can discriminate against the smaller Christian groups. It isn't a bad argument to make.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
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  4. #134
    Lallygag Moderator Geoff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    I asked Ivy that question.

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...3-post121.html

    Her argument is because liberal academia is the dominant group, it can discriminate against the smaller Christian groups. It isn't a bad argument to make.
    Then I think you might be missing my point. My point is that a "dominant group" very rarely exists in religion, and that implying there is any group that doesn't get persecuted eg the bland term "christians" is probably wrong. Each big apparently homogenous group, consists of smaller groupings that fight amongst themselves and persecute quite happily (like the Spanish inquisition).

    Which is why I don't think one can claim dominant groups can't be persecuted - there is no such thing as a dominant group, except for in an over simple black and white view of the world, at least where religion is concerned!

  5. #135
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    Think about it. The moment the dominant group can turn around and say that everyone is persecuted, including themselves, then they can start forming justifications for persecuting other groups. The difference being that there aren't any major consequences when other groups hold prejudice for the dominant group because the dominant group doesn't lose any of its entitlement or privilege, but there can be and often is major consequences when the dominant group holds prejudice for other groups.

    My professor had a funny story that went along with her explanation. While checking out of a room at a hotel, the professor was standing by the front desk when a housekeeper came down and reported to the manager that a room, which had been rented by a couple American Indian kids, had been trashed. The manager went up and checked and came back down to the front desk. He then loudly proclaimed, "That is the last time I rent to Indians!" The professor found this funny and asked the manager, "Have you ever had a bunch of white kids rent a room and trash it?" To which the manager replied, "Yes." And the professor then asked, "Then why do you still rent rooms to white people?"

    Can you see the difference?

    Can an American Indian who manages a hotel in America declare that he will no longer rent to white people? That hotel would probably go bankrupt very quickly if he did.
    That's exactly what I was thinking about. Yes that can be correct and so too can it be correct that the prof was being dismissive of valid concerns because she can't see why they'd be bothered. I know that I feel nothing if I get called a "Limey" that I don't mind but it's assumption to think that other's don't mind or if they consider it racist.

    As far as I understand it persecution is unreasonable aggressive pursuit of someone to undermine and insult them, at a base degree of definition. I have to wonder what part of that is reliant on the victim qualifying. That's like when it was said not to be murder if it was a black guy... it's stupid. If the attack is there and is applied to a group arbitrarily then I don't see how it can be classified so easily as not persecution. Sure it may not be to the same degree as some but that'd be a silly parameter to put on things.

    As for whether or not someone of a different demographic could work against white males, that's irrelevant. That's just thinking through the degrees of persecution possible by one group or another. Plus there are many situations where the so called "minorities" out number the "majority" if not in individual groups then as a coordinated whole. Now that is often used to promote paranoia and convince people that the newest version of the national front is "reasonable" but there are also pockets of truth in it.

    An analogy for you,
    You have a flock of sheep and a wolf on the prowl. Should you let the wolf run free because it is outnumbered?
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  6. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    As for whether or not someone of a different demographic could work against white males, that's irrelevant. That's just thinking through the degrees of persecution possible by one group or another. Plus there are many situations where the so called "minorities" out number the "majority" if not in individual groups then as a coordinated whole. Now that is often used to promote paranoia and convince people that the newest version of the national front is "reasonable" but there are also pockets of truth in it.
    I think it is a stupid assumption that minority groups could or even would work together as a "coordinated whole" against the dominant group. For one, minority groups may not agree with each other. For example, there are many black movement groups who openly condemn gay movement groups. Heck, look to Nazi Germany, where all the minority groups fell one by one because nobody would speak up for anybody else. Secondly, the dominant group seeks to keep the minority groups divided, either through racial categorization or by granting some groups more power than others. I can't see how there are any "pockets of truth" in what you said. Only baseless assumptions.

    An analogy for you,
    You have a flock of sheep and a wolf on the prowl. Should you let the wolf run free because it is outnumbered?
    I think you are going to have to explain the analogy to me. Are you likening minority groups to wolves and the dominant group to sheep?
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
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  7. #137
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    I think it is a stupid assumption that minority groups could or even would work together as a "coordinated whole" against the dominant group. For one, minority groups may not agree with each other. For example, there are many black movement groups who openly condemn gay movement groups. Heck, look to Nazi Germany, where all the minority groups fell one by one because nobody would speak up for anybody else. Secondly, the dominant group seeks to keep the minority groups divided, either through racial categorization or by granting some groups more power than others. I can't see how there are any "pockets of truth" in what you said. Only baseless assumptions.



    I think you are going to have to explain the analogy to me. Are you likening minority groups to wolves and the dominant group to sheep?
    Everyone is talking about possible and probables, well unless they're fooling themselves or talking of a specific instance. All I am attempting to do is reverse your current assumption to look at the possibles and probables.

    If you think about it, if you are part of a repressed minority then you're much more likely to be active than if your part of the majority. How many of this active minority would you need to equal the smaller percentage of the active majority?

    See I'm not the type of person to prejudge but I have had it done to me as I'm "one of those". Basically I come from a background of no diversity, no poverty, no particular thing of one way or another. I then get lambasted on certain days for not having experienced the hardships. Now if that were done on a larger scale that's persecution and yet it's being persecuted for not having hardship.

    It's just too neat to say that minorities get persecuted whilst majorities reign supreme. That's idealised and not very realistic.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  8. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Everyone is talking about possible and probables, well unless they're fooling themselves or talking of a specific instance. All I am attempting to do is reverse your current assumption to look at the possibles and probables.

    If you think about it, if you are part of a repressed minority then you're much more likely to be active than if your part of the majority. How many of this active minority would you need to equal the smaller percentage of the active majority?
    If you are part of the oppressing dominant group, then all you have to do is maintain the status quo. There is no need to be active.

    See I'm not the type of person to prejudge but I have had it done to me as I'm "one of those". Basically I come from a background of no diversity, no poverty, no particular thing of one way or another. I then get lambasted on certain days for not having experienced the hardships. Now if that were done on a larger scale that's persecution and yet it's being persecuted for not having hardship.
    That is a really, really vague definition of the word "persecution."

    It's just too neat to say that minorities get persecuted whilst majorities reign supreme. That's idealised and not very realistic.
    Minorities break free of persecution through group solidarity. Take the black civil rights movement. Only when blacks began boycotting, marching, and protesting together were they able to bring about change. But group solidarity also required that they distant themselves from other minority groups.

    Now if you would like to provide any "realistic" examples of otherwise, then I would love to hear them, but the dominant does reign supreme unless each minority group has the tenacity to hold its own.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
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  9. #139
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    If you are part of the oppressing dominant group, then all you have to do is maintain the status quo. There is no need to be active.
    Which is why the number who are active is less. Without any activity then there is no oppression only the lingering of the after effects.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    That is a really, really vague definition of the word "persecution."
    I like vague. You want detail? Go ask my friend who'll tell you the latin roots as if that's relevant to it's current use.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    Minorities break free of persecution through group solidarity. Take the black civil rights movement. Only when blacks began boycotting, marching, and protesting together were they able to bring about change. But group solidarity also required that they distant themselves from other minority groups.
    So the active number went up and something changed.... just like I was pointing to?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    Now if you would like to provide any "realistic" examples of otherwise, then I would love to hear them, but the dominant does reign supreme unless each minority group has the tenacity to hold its own.
    I know of few Nazi's but I've known a couple of german guys who have been persecuted for being German. The persecutors are a minority (they're fortunately rarely clever enough to figure out biology and hence don't breed) and yet they persecute virtually all white males with a german accent.

    Another good example is the way Lori get's whacked around because she went to a private school. They assume that she's "red wine drinking middle class"... she was kind of on an uphill battle when she join the Labour party.

    Basically any small mined person is capable of persecuting someone for something. What you seem to be on about is righteous indignation. I have little truck with such things.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  10. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Which is why the number who are active is less. Without any activity then there is no oppression only the lingering of the after effects.
    The status quo is the oppression.

    I like vague. You want detail? Go ask my friend who'll tell you the latin roots as if that's relevant to it's current use.
    I think you are arbitrarily redefining persecution.

    So the active number went up and something changed.... just like I was pointing to?
    No, there was countless numbers of individuals and groups that were active in the black community for decades before the civil rights movement took off. What changed is they were brought together into a single movement.

    I know of few Nazi's but I've known a couple of german guys who have been persecuted for being German. The persecutors are a minority (they're fortunately rarely clever enough to figure out biology and hence don't breed) and yet they persecute virtually all white males with a german accent.
    Without knowing who the persecutors are, how do you expect me to comment on that? Were they visitors in a foreign country where they were the minority?

    Basically any small mined person is capable of persecuting someone for something. What you seem to be on about is righteous indignation. I have little truck with such things.
    Any small minded person can persecute someone else for something. But the point you contested and the one I was making is that only the dominant group can effectively persecute against minority groups. Minority groups cannot effectively persecute the dominant group.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
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