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  1. #91
    Lallygag Moderator Geoff's Avatar
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    Hey, did someone threaten to involve the mods? I don't really have to read all this *censored* do I?

  2. #92
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    After you said people should watch the video links so they would know what you were talking about, I did so and commented on them, but there was no response so I figured you weren't really serious about discussing your original topic.
    I'm sorry. I simply couldn't think of anything to add.

    I origninally made this thread with the objective of understanding perceived persecution. It's one of my testier subjects and it's only brought me grief on this forum so I don't know why I continue to bring up variations of the topic. Then it went off on this sort of affirmative action is a form of reverse racism tangent.

    From this thread, I've found that no matter who you are, you can find a way to feel persecuted. I even felt persecuted because of this thread. It seems that feeling persecuted is useless. If it doesn't motivate you into action then it has no meaning besides a personal debilitation or weakness.

    In that sense I have to hand it to these more conservative minded folks. They as individuals don't seem to persistently be treating anyone badly, so they aren't contributing to any mistreatment. Whereas many religious groups can't say they don't mistreat other groups. I would say that is my conclusion. People who do not judge should not be judged whereas those who judge should be prepared to be judged. Ironically, its in the bible.

    I'm just so tired of arguing. It's so useless and meaningless. I need to turn over a new leaf. INFJs are not meant to act like this.
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  3. #93
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Well, I understand people feeling persecuted and I do think it, or at least discrimination, happens pretty frequently based on many, many things. Religion wouldn't be any exception. I think that Christians in the US fear persecution, in part because there are a lot of references to it in the Epistles. The US is moving into Post-Christianity like much of Europe and it's new territory for a group that has had almost universal acceptance and major influence on the culture. They, or I should say we, aren't sure exactly where this is going and it's kind of scary.

    For some, the solution is to hang onto all the power they can and try to turn back the clock and make everyone pretend that we'll all Christians. I can understand that instinct, but I think it is unwise and ultimately more damaging that accepting the way things are going and adapting to it, while keeping in place (and creating new ones as needed) protections for the rights of everyone, regardless of their creed. I really believe we have a good constitution for this purpose because this is the kind of thing for which it was made.

    I think persecution comes in when people have the attitude that their way is the right way and everyone who is 'wrong' is obviously inferior and therefore needs to shape up and do the 'right' thing then proceed to make sure they do just that.

    I think a place where there is some touchy overlap is that Christianity is an evangelistic religion in it's very essence. It's commanded that Christians tell people the gospel, so it isn't some weird thing rogue Christians do, it's almost something Christians are. You can't even blame it on Paul because it's right there in the red letters. So the free practice of religion for a Bible-believing Christian includes proselytizing, but that can infringe on the free practice of religion for others to some degree. I mean, we do have freedom of speech, everyone (theoretically) does, so it can work, but in settings that are not private and where people don't necessarily have a choice to be there, you start getting into something that is akin to state sponsored religion and that, of course, is a big no-no according to the bill of rights. So it's a fine line, but I think it can be walked.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  4. #94

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    I was thinking about perceived religious persecution some more, and I thought of something I find interesting.

    There were many reasons that Europeans first came to the New World, but the generally agreed upon driving force was freedom of religion. Hence the term "pilgrims". Nearly all of these pilgrims were Christian, and so were the founding fathers that made freedom of religion a big part of the Constitution.

    The fact that these people were Christian was happenstance, and has no realistic bearing on freedom of religion. But because they were Christian, over time I think people have mistaken the concept of freedom of religion for freedom of Christianity. This is why some erroneously claim that America was founded as a Christian nation. America was founded as a nation with freedom of religion - it just so happens that the people who established this freedom were Christians. That is not the same thing at all as being a Christian nation.

    Therefore, I think the increasing number of immigrants with differing religious traditions and the valiant attempt to preserve secularism in government combine to make Christians feel that "their" America is being taken away. And I think that's the source of the perceived persecution. They're angry at the possible loss of something that in actuality was never really theirs to begin with.
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  5. #95
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post
    I was thinking about perceived religious persecution some more, and I thought of something I find interesting.

    There were many reasons that Europeans first came to the New World, but the generally agreed upon driving force was freedom of religion. Hence the term "pilgrims". Nearly all of these pilgrims were Christian, and so were the founding fathers that made freedom of religion a big part of the Constitution.

    The fact that these people were Christian was happenstance, and has no realistic bearing on freedom of religion. But because they were Christian, over time I think people have mistaken the concept of freedom of religion for freedom of Christianity. This is why some erroneously claim that America was founded as a Christian nation. America was founded as a nation with freedom of religion - it just so happens that the people who established this freedom were Christians. That is not the same thing at all as being a Christian nation.

    Therefore, I think the increasing number of immigrants with differing religious traditions and the valiant attempt to preserve secularism in government combine to make Christians feel that "their" America is being taken away. And I think that's the source of the perceived persecution. They're angry at the possible loss of something that in actuality was never really theirs to begin with.

    It's a very delicate balance. The region was initially colonized by many very religious Christians, but the independent country was formulated during the Age of Reason, and religious freedom for all faiths (even non-faiths) was a central tenet of the Founding Fathers. It's still a majority Christian country, but we have secular state institutions that are also obligated to allow us to exercise our faiths freely. Also, especially for Christians, the faithful part of the population are more religious, more activist, and more comfortable with using their own moral framework as a guideline for political and social views. There are many shadings and gray areas and contradictions going on here.
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  6. #96

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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    I feel absolutely no guilt about being a white man. None.
    No one is asking you to have guilt. My original contention was that Christians are not persecuted. I then made an analogy of white males. You responded with the claim that white males ARE being persecuted.

    Can you name ONE group who gets persecuted LESS? If you can't name one group, then white males obviously don't have it so bad. I never asked for an apology, I just wanted an admittance that Christians are NOT persecuted, which you still haven't given me.

    I didn't mean to turn this into a race thing at all, (I just blurted out the white male analogy, without thinking it through). Sorry for giving such a late retort, after you answered me; I just re-discovered this thread.

  7. #97

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    Quote Originally Posted by meanlittlechimp View Post
    No one is asking you to have guilt. My original contention was that Christians are not persecuted. Then I made an analogy of white males. You responded with your claim that white males are being persecuted.

    Can you name ONE groups who gets persecuted LESS? If you can't name one group, than white males obviously don't have it so bad.
    I think it's less a matter of persecution than a sense of "What do I have to freaking accomplish to be respected for my abilities instead of dismissed because I'm a white man and everything should be easy for me?"

    It's like a guy seven feet tall playing basketball. No matter how skilled he is, people are always going to assume he's good just because he's tall.
    Everybody have fun tonight. Everybody Wang Chung tonight.

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  8. #98

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    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post
    I think it's less a matter of persecution than a sense of "What do I have to freaking accomplish to be respected for my abilities instead of dismissed because I'm a white man and everything should be easy for me?"

    It's like a guy seven feet tall playing basketball. No matter how skilled he is, people are always going to assume he's good just because he's tall.
    I don't think most people walk around and say to themselves, that guy only has that job because he's white, can you elaborate how you've come to feel this? But ok, assuming everything you said, is the case..., which ethnicity would you rather be, to make life easier for you?

    I think, however, socioeconomic background trumps ethnicity or gender in terms of overall advantage (though it often gets blurred, because white people are typically wealthier than black people) . A rich black person, who went to private school, has it easier than a poor white kid. If you assume the same socioeconomic background; rich whites are better off than rich blacks and poor whites are better off than poor blacks. So, overall, you're almost always better off being white, unless you're rich black vs poor white.

  9. #99
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Hm...Matrix of Domination.

    The following are proven to be advantages whites have.
    1. Paid more. (excluding union jobs)
    2. Hired for positions over other races with similar credentials.
    3. Can resell property for significantly more than other races could sell the same property for.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
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  10. #100
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Is there actually a group of people who aren't persecuted for one thing or another? I'm fairly sure that any demographic carries with it certain stigmas.

    As for religion and school, personally I was expected to act like a christian but was taught about most religions. The thing that occurs to me is that religion is a personal choice, should it really be taught in any regard other than to prepare children for what exists. I left school knowing what a car was, I was not told to buy a 4x4 or make sure it's a Ford, that's my decision.

    This kind of thing always bothers me. A person's choice of religion is no more important to the next man than their choice of shoes. Of course to the person who has made that decision it may be extremely important but it's a mistake to try and enforce that feeling of importance as much as it is a mistake to try to enforce that same choice. There are many who have, quite rightly, decided that their choice of religion will not be forced upon others but far fewer who recognise that the importance they place upon that decision should also not be forced upon others.

    As for if religion is being persecuted more now than before, on the one hand I doubt that... there's far fewer crusades for example.... but on the other hand there seems to be more culture associated with advertising related to churches and more vociferous pursuit of people's money for some religious thing or other and that's bound to create dissent in this capitalist environment. I said it previously in another thread, religions are usually judged on the most prevalent associations and the campaigning face on TV and the loud bellowings of the extremists. I'm afraid the reasonable religious individual often has the least noticeable voice.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

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