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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by mooseantlers View Post
    We shouldn't be there in the first place it's a waste of money, we haven't really helped them, just added to the trouble, and we are losing young men over nothing, it's sad really.
    I think the invasion of Afghanistan was needed (not Iraq).

    However, they are still killing each other. President Obama apologized personally (a rare thing). Still it rages on.

  2. #22
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    It doesn't seem savage because it's alien. It seems savage because it is savage.
    Some people would interpret things like circumcision of children as savage. There are things that are undeniably offensive--to the point where most would even agree that is wrong, abusive, or evil even.. but don't mistake acts of some as the voice of all. Many Americans would be highly offended if your voice was the only one people heard when learning about our culture.

    No more savage are Muslims for their extremists than are Christians for theirs.

    It's important not to make generalized comments about all muslims, but let's not keep that from allowing us to judge evil acts of afghanistan muslims as evil acts.
    Evil is a strong term.. but lets replace the strike-out words with any other group. For example, "of Christians".. Almost any group could fit in there, to be honest. I understand we're talking specifically of Muslims, but I'd say burning a sacred text is pretty evil and we're quick to forgive it...

    Edit: also please don't insult all Christians of every stripe by referring to the bizarre family known as Westboro baptist as "Christian".
    It's queer that you can say that while you defend the position that blatantly grouped all Muslims into that of one country's culture's doings.. and not the entire country, mind you, just some of it. A small percentage, a minute one, creates the tint in the glass windows that color the faces of every Muslim, or anyone who looks Muslim at that, to many Americans. I'd be really sore-hearted if the glasses Muslims used to view Christians were just as heavily colored by Christian extremists.
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  3. #23
    Per Ardua Metamorphosis's Avatar
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    The problem with the whole conflict (and the quran burning) that most people either don't see or choose to ignore is that religion isn't the reason for the problems. It's just the catalyst.
    "You will always be fond of me. I represent to you all the sins you never had the courage to commit."

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  4. #24
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    There are things that are undeniably offensive--to the point where most would even agree that is wrong, abusive, or evil even.. but don't mistake acts of some as the voice of all.
    The problem is that the reaction to the Quran burnings is the voice of an overwhelming majority of Afghan Muslims (in terms of popular support and beliefs, not direct participation). In Pakistan, a country that is usually regarded as somewhat less Islamist than Afghanistan, 76% of the population supports the death penalty for apostates, a statistic that can reasonably be extrapolated to approximate public opinion on blasphemy (which is illegal, and carries the death sentence in Pakistan). Given the close cultural, ethnic, and religious connections between the two countries, and in light of Afghanistan's reputation as the more 'traditional' and Islamist of the two countries, the numbers are probably even higher in Afghanistan.

    http://pewresearch.org/pubs/1683/pak...ort-harsh-laws

  5. #25
    Knobgoblin mooseantlers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post

    Edit: also please don't insult all Christians of every stripe by referring to the bizarre family known as Westboro baptist as "Christian".
    Please don't insult all Muslims due to the bizarre extremists.
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  6. #26
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    Some people would interpret things like circumcision of children as savage. There are things that are undeniably offensive--to the point where most would even agree that is wrong, abusive, or evil even...
    1. I'm fine with other people viewing things I do or support as savage. My views do not depend on popular opinion.

    2. You don't believe honor killings arise to a level you would be willing to characterize as evil or wrong?

    3. What is the standard for "undeniably offensive"? Popular opinion?

    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    but don't mistake acts of some as the voice of all. Many Americans would be highly offended if your voice was the only one people heard when learning about our culture.
    Where did I mistake the acts of some as the voice of all?
    I explicitly said Muslim beliefs shouldn't be generalized and limited my criticism to Afghanistan Muslims and specifically the mountain tribes.


    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    No more savage are Muslims for their extremists than are Christians for theirs.
    What is an extremist?


    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    Evil is a strong term.. but lets replace the strike-out words with any other group. For example, "of Christians".. Almost any group could fit in there, to be honest. I understand we're talking specifically of Muslims, but I'd say burning a sacred text is pretty evil and we're quick to forgive it...
    Sure.
    Did I ever imply that Christians shouldn't be judged?

    Matthew 7:3-5
    3 Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?
    4 Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when there is the log in your own eye?
    5 You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.
    Your first post I quoted supported simply ignoring the wrong we see in in other cultures and accepting it as a cultural difference. Such an idea will only allow evil to proliferate since nobody is willing to judge. Notice that Jesus's solution is not to simply accept the speck in the others eye, but to remove the speck and log. Jesus supports judgment of others and the self.

    Maybe I seem like I just judge people outside of the church. I'm sorry that seems the case. I guarantee you if there were more evangelicals around here that were interested in discussing church and Christian culture I would be judging the hell out of the Christian church. The bible doesn't refer to the church as a whore without good reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    It's queer that you can say that while you defend the position that blatantly grouped all Muslims into that of one country's culture's doings.. and not the entire country, mind you, just some of it. A small percentage, a minute one, creates the tint in the glass windows that color the faces of every Muslim, or anyone who looks Muslim at that, to many Americans. I'd be really sore-hearted if the glasses Muslims used to view Christians were just as heavily colored by Christian extremists.
    I never grouped all Muslims together. That is a figment of your imagination.

    Even Nebbykoo (who I was not explicitly defending) didn't necessarily group all the Muslims. My assumption was that it was only the rioters and murderers that were being attacked.

    Quote Originally Posted by mooseantlers View Post
    Please don't insult all Muslims due to the bizarre extremists.
    Seriously?
    Where did I do that?
    I've referred to mountain tribes and Afghanistan Muslims.


    Again, Ftr, I do not support generalizing Muslims.
    Nor do I support dividing Muslims up into two simple groups; those Muslims that are deemed acceptable to western/multicultural sensibilities and those Muslims that are extremists.
    I recognize there are a large variety of Muslim faith and practice of which I'm largely ignorant. But, that ignorance isn't going to stop me from calling pederasty and murder evil.
    Last edited by Beorn; 02-24-2012 at 11:08 PM. Reason: Edited to remove at least some dickishness from the post
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  7. #27
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    I don't know the specifics of this incident, but generally speaking I'm not in favor of burning the Quran.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    Nor do I support dividing Muslims up into two simple groups; those Muslims that are deemed acceptable to western/multicultural sensibilities and those Muslims that are extremists.
    I also agree. This is one of the more annoying aspects of most discussions concerning Islam - or actually almost any religion for that matter.

  8. #28
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    I'm sure you've read an article(s) about the "accidental" buring of the Quran in Afghanistan (if you haven't, just leave the thread now, I want posts from people that read the news).

    Is there anything NATO can do besides apologize? Just let the whole issue burn itself out (pun intended)?

    As soon as I heard the news, I began wondering how many Muslims would die in protests. Just a complete waste of time and energy. It really is the Dark Ages in the Middle East.
    The big picture parallels of the conflict explain it in essence. When WWII ended a lot of people from Turkey were invited over to my country to help out and replace the male workforce (cause most males were dead). The area I come from, turkish people now live in the third generation and tho the integration process is still a complicated thing, you already have turkish people at for example soccer championships waving german and turkish flags. When I go to the supermarket there are woman in burqas and nobody is looking strangely there are a couple of mosques and the people generally feel good, as good you can feel living in a country that is fundamentally different from your way of life.

    The thing is I have come to know those people exactly as hospitable, tolerant and open to cultures like I have come to know the Anglo-Saxons. Even the people in Syria or Lybia are hospitable, if you treat them with respect, make compromises and dont try to sell them your worldview.

    But one thing and thats the essence of the conflict, both Muslims and Anglo-Saxons have in common. When you speak bad about their God they go crazy. And therefore I find it unfair to say Muslims are the only ones who still live in the Dark Age.
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  9. #29
    Senior Member Lightyear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    Your first post I quoted supported simply ignoring the wrong we see in in other cultures and accepting it as a cultural difference. Such an idea will only allow evil to proliferate since nobody is willing to judge.
    I would agree with that. I am studying Social Anthropology at the moment and the relativism and double-standard in anthropology are just crazy. How is it okay that because someone - probably accidently - burns a book (even if it is a holy book) that as a result 6 people are killed? Imagine the reaction if a Christian would react to Bible burning by killing people. Would people come alongside him to apologise for burning his holy book or would they put this person in prison for a long long time?

    American anthropologist Henry Munson Jr calls this double-standard, where 'simpler societies' are somehow treated with 'a lower moral expectation' as 'the Lawrence of academia syndrome', because you know going crazy and killing people after someone burns a person's holy book is just their culture. Munson writes:

    "[It] leads Western scholars to leap to the defense of any and all aspects fo the societies they study, especially third-world societies, even if this means defending conduct they would never tolerate in their own country and even if it means ignoring or criticizing intellectuals from the societies they study who condemn the very things they defend."

    I just wrote an essay about Muslim women and their rights and Muslim women's rights activists (who come from Muslim countries, so they know what it means to live there, like Somalian Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Iranian Haideh Moghissi, Pakistani Sabatina James) see this Western relativism as one of the biggest obstacles for women in Muslim countries actually getting equal rights, because when someone points out that there is a massive gender discrimination going on some well-meaning scholars come up with "It's just their culture. If they confine their women to their home, beat them, punish them or even kill them after being raped for bringing dishonour and impurity on the family, prohibit them to work and to study but instead marry them off at the age of 9... well that's just their culture." I am sorry but that is bullshit.

    I am by no way saying that all Muslims are like this but you also have to look at the facts, if there are for example statistics saying that in 80% of all Pakistani households women suffer from domestic abuse (read 'Islam, Women and Violence' by Anna King for more information), which is sanctioned by Sharia law, then you should ask yourself some very hard questions. Is your tolerance of other cultures really a sign of open-mindedness or are you just sanctioning abuse and injustice to go on unchecked while looking away in the name of tolerance?

  10. #30
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lightyear View Post
    I would agree with that. I am studying Social Anthropology at the moment and the relativism and double-standard in anthropology are just crazy. How is it okay that because someone - probably accidently - burns a book (even if it is a holy book) that as a result 6 people are killed? Imagine the reaction if a Christian would react to Bible burning by killing people. Would people come alongside him to apologise for burning his holy book or would they put this person in prison for a long long time?
    The problem is one of education and being on the higher psychological ground. Would you for example tell your kids that Batman was actually only a commercial tool to pull the money out of the parents pockets, while Batman being your childs superhero ?

    You wouldnt
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

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