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  1. #111
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    So I am wondering, did the FIRE people modify what was on the site between the time that Orangey, Tallulah, and others read it, and the time Luna, myself and others read it. Or did this shift in perception happen mainly because of the assumption that pages were ripped out and a warning was issued to him?
    I think they modified the site. When I first read it, I'm pretty sure (though, I can't be 100% certain without a screenshot) that there was nothing on the page about him making up the warning(s).
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  2. #112
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    The original Jezebel article stated this:

    Not oddly, Mitzelfeld (apparently one of the teachers he was "hot for") disapproved of his essay. What is a little odd is the fact that he transcribed her note into his journal. In the note, she calls his essay "completely inappropriate" and says "if this continues, I am obligated to report you to the Dean." Apparently it did continue — a few entries later, there's another "Hot for Teacher Continued":
    Then, apparently after contacting him, they put a strike through the original stuff they wrote and added in the new information (and wrote a follow-up about contacting him and a fellow student.) They left the original stuff in place, though.
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  3. #113
    RETIRED CzeCze's Avatar
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    I feel so sorry for female teachers who have to put up with this bs. I'm not surprised if most guys respond to the teacher as "over reacting". People might think that a teacher is in a "power position" but things like gender, age, race, class, etc. are still very much in play in a classroom. Overt sexual harassment still exists even from the student to the teacher, not the other way around. My aunt teaches adults and years ago had a male student harassing her by doing things like bringing in porn magazines and showing it to her. She finally had to file a report with the school to get him disciplined/kicked out. For that male student and this male student in question, the fact that the teacher is female automatically drops her a few pegs in the "worthy of respect" department. If the teachers are of similar or younger age than this older student, even more so I'm sure.
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  4. #114

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I think they modified the site. When I first read it, I'm pretty sure (though, I can't be 100% certain without a screenshot) that there was nothing on the page about him making up the warning(s).
    I'm not positive either, but I have seen this happen before. And some of the information mentioned by others I didn't read the first time round. I don't know about ABC News, but I've seen CNN do this and it makes me nuts. They need to clearly indicate when they've made changes.
    "The purpose of life is to be defeated by greater and greater things." - Rainer Maria Rilke

  5. #115
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iwakar View Post
    I'm not positive either, but I have seen this happen before. And some of the information mentioned by others I didn't read the first time round. I don't know about ABC News, but I've seen CNN do this and it makes me nuts. They need to clearly indicate when they've made changes.
    I agree. I'm not really happy at all with the general changes I've seen occur with the "big comglomerate" news agencies like ABC, NBC, CBS, etc. Not only have there been issues with revising news on the fly without history tracking, but the headlines are specifically misleading/misrepresenting the facts of the article sometimes.
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  6. #116
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iwakar View Post
    If you were the teacher, what would you do?
    Not feel intimidated, unless he started violating my space and/or privacy. Before that and assuming I was offended, I'd just tell him that he should stop because it's inappropriate. Judging by the little information I read, in all likelihood, I would not be offended and wouldn't say anything.

    If you were the student, what would you do?
    Not be pissed and not make a stink. Go on with my life. Laugh about it.


    If you were the school, what would you do?
    Warn the student. Activate the bureaucratic hierarchical rigamarole that all institutions like this have in place once someone makes a big stink.

  7. #117

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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    That's on the third page or so
    Ah, I think this was one of the sentences I gave up on (his handwriting is a lot neater than mine, I really wonder how teachers read the stuff I turn in).

    I was thinking the phrase was in regards to his descriptions of his teachers, and didn't expect it where we was describing his decision not to tear pages out. Certainly ups the creep factor.

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  8. #118

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    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    I feel so sorry for female teachers who have to put up with this bs. I'm not surprised if most guys respond to the teacher as "over reacting". People might think that a teacher is in a "power position" but things like gender, age, race, class, etc. are still very much in play in a classroom. Overt sexual harassment still exists even from the student to the teacher, not the other way around. My aunt teaches adults and years ago had a male student harassing her by doing things like bringing in porn magazines and showing it to her. She finally had to file a report with the school to get him disciplined/kicked out. For that male student and this male student in question, the fact that the teacher is female automatically drops her a few pegs in the "worthy of respect" department. If the teachers are of similar or younger age than this older student, even more so I'm sure.
    Having had sexual thoughts about women while never being one does ruin my perspective, I guess. But is having sexual thoughts about women inherently mean I am disrespecting them at the moment? I mean, it is part of human nature, right?

    I would never bring porn magazines to show professors, like what happened to your aunt or write things like this guy did. But if the teacher was a guy and the things you described happened, would you react differently? I am just wondering.

    I am guessing in your aunt's case that the student was doing a lot of things and that she did warn the guy before getting him kicked out. I realize that it seems like "common sense" that you don't do things like this. But I have also known people who I could imagine doing things like this without ever being aware that it was making the other person feel uncomfortable (or even sexually harassed).

    It is certainly possible that this guy is genuinely dangerous (and maybe he openly carries guns or something). But the picture I have of him is a chauvinist from a different generation who also happens to be a legalistic nitpicker who gets on peoples bad side.

    Also, I am experienced with being branded a 'creep' as well. When I grow out a beard, there are people who look at me funny, and seem to react as if I would hurt them or claim I look "angry" when I am far from being in that state. I feel like that is a form of prejudice as well. I realize people are genuinely sacred in these circumstances, but I don't believe it justified. I would hate for things to escalate where putative actions are taken against me because of fear like this.

    I am also an older student who has gone back to school, and I can see myself being branded as the "creepy old guy" if decide to talk to female students (who are, in general, 5-10 years younger). Again, I feel this is a sort of prejudice too (agism). Even if I am attracted to them, I don't feel like it is inappropriate to form study groups and such. I think putative actions taken for doing things like this is unwarranted as well.

    I realize there are distinctions that make him more "creepy":
    1) The guy called a student using a phone book without asking if that was OK first.
    2) He has attractions that many would find distasteful
    3) He likes writing stories that are sexual in nature regarding female professors.
    4) He further wants to "share" these stories with them.
    5) He has opinions on gun control that are very unpopular on campus.

    We are all presented with essentially the same evidence (agreed that it is mostly put out by his side), but people have made comparisons to the Virginia Tech shooter. I think we are painting with too broad a brush.

    Under what further evidence would you say he was guilty of sexual harassment?
    Is what we are presented enough?
    or would you need confirmation of further evidence before you concluded that?


    The question about whether or not he was warned is rather central in my eyes (considering what was in his notebook was made up). Early on, many of the reactions were that he was essentially told to write anything, but then suddenly told to drop his classes and go to a formal hearing because of what he wrote in his journal. For me, no warning, means the decision was likely unfair.

    Also, for me, any accounts of acts of actual intimidation would lend more credence to things (even if he wasn't warned in advance). The fact that people were afraid of him isn't enough (could be the adult form of xenophobia that happens in high school, and doesn't stop in college or later).

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
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  9. #119
    Senior Member Munchies's Avatar
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    sureley there are matters of more importance to be discussing. (waits for backlash)
    1+1=3 OMFG

  10. #120
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Munchies View Post
    sureley there are matters of more importance to be discussing. (waits for backlash)
    How 'bout that Ron Paul?
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