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  1. #1
    Freaking Ratchet Rail Tracer's Avatar
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    Default All Eyes on Greece.

    http://money.cnn.com/2012/02/10/mark...day_lookahead/
    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-0...o-20-9-1-.html
    http://www.cnn.com/2012/02/12/world/...html?hpt=hp_t1

    It seems that Greece is [caught in a hard-spot/doomed] whether it accepts the austerity measures or not.

    I can't remember the figures, but 48% youth unemployment and 20.9% total unemployment is quite a lot for an ailing country (it is like translating that to Ohio... which the unemployment is nowhere near that high...) adding to cutbacks to pay for the debt... and that will just be another recipe for disaster.

    The chance that Greece will be kicked out of the EU and be an even bigger Iceland?

  2. #2
    Senior Member pinkgraffiti's Avatar
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    well good on the greek population for starting to rebel against this charade. they didn't sign up for the game and they don't recognize its rules. my eyes are totally on them, they will lead us the way out of this (externally imposed) mess.

  3. #3
    Senior Member Munchies's Avatar
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    WOOoooooOOOoooOoooo gonna be a bumpy ride
    1+1=3 OMFG

  4. #4
    Senior Member reason's Avatar
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    If you throw enough firebombs at it, reality will go away.
    A criticism that can be brought against everything ought not to be brought against anything.

  5. #5
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    As bad as Fed monetary policy can seems at times, I'm really glad the US isn't stuck in a situation like this (the euro).
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  6. #6
    Uniqueorn William K's Avatar
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    I think a Greek default is inevitable now... the other Eurozone countries are risking getting dragged along

    2011 Q4 GDP Numbers
    Germany : -0.2%
    Italy : -0.7%
    Netherlands : -0.7%

    We're doooomed

    France : +0.2%

    Ok, maybe not...
    4w5, Fi>Ne>Ti>Si>Ni>Fe>Te>Se, sp > so > sx

    appreciates being appreciated, conflicted over conflicts, afraid of being afraid, bad at being bad, predictably unpredictable, consistently inconsistent, remarkably unremarkable...

    I may not agree with what you are feeling, but I will defend to death your right to have a good cry over it

    The whole problem with the world is that fools & fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts. ~ Bertrand Russell

  7. #7
    Senior Member reason's Avatar
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    A Greek default is bad for the Eurozone. More precisely, profligate fiscal policy by Greece was bad for the Eurozone. The damage has already been done, and default is just a natural consequence. While a broken leg is a problem, the mistake was driving drunk in the first place. That said, nominal GDP shouldn't be falling unless the European Central Bank is failing to do its job, and real GDP in countries like France and Germany shouldn't be significantly impacted. If GDP is falling or slowing across the Eurozone, then it's probably symptomatic of a monetary problem only tangentially connected to the Greek crisis.
    A criticism that can be brought against everything ought not to be brought against anything.

  8. #8
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Why is austerity the solution anyway? I dont know how profligate fiscal policy was in Greece, even if it were a serious problem I'm sure it could have been corrected without jeopardising the Euro or neighbouring economies in the Eurozone if there wasnt a wider problem which brings me back to the question about austerity, its not simply a cutting of spending which was unwise or profligate, its real serious, serious cuts of a kind which could and would only be contemplated in a crisis such as what is taking place presently.

    The last crisis like it was the depression, which due to the organisation and strength of labour elements, among other things (including the threat of communism abroad), the hit necessary to get the money circulating in the economy was taken by the legacies of the uber rich.

    This time around there is foreign communist threat and no organised labour might in the heartlands, Greece is far from being a heartland, so it is politically expedient for the rich who took the hit the last time to struggle to protect their interests and legacy and say someone else has to take the hit.

    So as a consequence there are a variety of experiments going on globally to see just how far welfare and labour rights or gains can be rolled back, how much the tax bills can be cut for the rich and how much the working people and unemployed can be made to suffer.

    Greece is just experiencing it in extremis and growth is only going to happen there if foreign international, private, investors decide its finally a good bet and they are only going to do that if its a sure thing and good for their money, ie if the class struggle experiment is succesful, I dont think that'll actually happen, not because the Greeks arent going to get crushed, I think they will but the international investors could decide they'll make more money betting against recovery and betting on failure.

    Its a problem that there's so much in the international economy and investment banking has counted on confidence tricks, casino or voodoo economics, although that's been a long, long time actualising, and there's no political force which will take that particular bull by the horns, left or right, the right, I think wrongly, believes it will fast track their value and norms agenda which I believe is a real bad thing. Its no more realistic or feasible than it was yesterday to dispense with all development from shortly before the first world war, even if the money and rich constituency are now insisting on it too.

  9. #9
    Uniqueorn William K's Avatar
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    130 billion Euro deal reached to keep Greece solvent with private bondholders voluntarily taking a 53.5% "haircut". The goal is to help Greece pay its maturing debts and help reduce its future debt ratio to 120.5% of its GDP in 2020. It staves off the default (though you can term bondholders not getting the full value of their bonds a default) and Greece stays in the EU but the deal looks to me like it just kicks the can down the road. How does this help the Greek economy recover and be sustainable if it asks for more cuts and austerity?
    4w5, Fi>Ne>Ti>Si>Ni>Fe>Te>Se, sp > so > sx

    appreciates being appreciated, conflicted over conflicts, afraid of being afraid, bad at being bad, predictably unpredictable, consistently inconsistent, remarkably unremarkable...

    I may not agree with what you are feeling, but I will defend to death your right to have a good cry over it

    The whole problem with the world is that fools & fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts. ~ Bertrand Russell

  10. #10
    Senior Member Eckhart's Avatar
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    There are experts (and more and more politicians from our government parties) who say that it would be better for Greece to leave the Euro and go back to the Drachme, because they can lower their currency to a reasonable level and give them a chance to recover. This currency lowering was an important factor in the "strategy" of the IMF in other countries. So "kicking them out" would maybe be better for everyone, but I would prefer if they take that step on their own. And leaving the Euro doesn't mean they have to leave the EU, there are several EU countries which don't have the Euro.

    The politics that the EU forces upon Greece (in a very undemocratic manner) sadly will ruin the country even more it seems (and the numbers support this thesis). I still remember in the finance crysis some years ago how our government said that it would be "insane" to save up through the crysis, and they spent good amounts of money to save jobs and help the domestic economy. While some of the specific measures taken for that I disagreed with (scrapping bonus especially), the general idea was apparently the right one and there is a consensus that Germany went relatively well through that crysis. Because of this it is not understandable that they force upon Greece politics which are totally opposed to their own recipes and which they classified as "insane". Or maybe it is understandable, but not for intentions which are in the interest of Greece and the general population.

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