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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Critical Hit View Post
    —Qur'an, sura 2 (Al-Baqarah), ayat 62
    Quran (2:191-193) - "And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]... but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah."

    Quran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not."

    Quran (4:74) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward."

    Quran (5:33)"The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"

    Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

    I could go on and on. The sheer number of verses advocating violence and hatred are staggering. You go ahead and have the debate with them about what the Koran really says while they are cutting off your head.

    Any rational person knows that certain Muslim groups’ interpretation of the Koran take these passages to mean kill people, and it doesn’t matter what the Koran supposedly or supposedly doesn’t say about peace or what these verses mean– they interpret it their way. Their way means convert or die. Their way means a messianic age can be ushered in by apocalyptic war that destroys the west and subjects everyone to Islam. And there is plenty of historical perspective to back this up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Critical Hit View Post


    People really have no god damn historical perspective on anything do they? I bet you think Jews and Christians have gotten along just hunkey doreey for the past 2000 years too?
    My favorite book on this topic is “Our Hands are Stained with Blood” by Michael Brown, however there are a great many good reads about it.

    Lack of facts isn’t our problem here. It’s flagrant disregard of them.

  2. #62
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    As a student of science, I am eternally grateful not to be in Iran, where my life would be in grave danger
    Are you an expert in Uranium Enrichment?

    Didn't think so...

    Citing the Fars News Agency, The Guardian reported that Ahmadi-Roshan was a chemistry expert specializing in making polymeric membranes for gaseous diffusion, part of the process needed for the enrichment of uranium."[4] He was a deputy director for commercial affairs at Natanz uranium enrichment facility.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mostafa_Ahmadi-Roshan

    To think that Israel and the CIA are so determined to slay those who learn about the atom would be alarming, to say the least
    What it is, is unsurprising to say the least.

    The CIA wouldn't touch this with a 10 foot pole.

    It was certainly the Mossad.

    On Tuesday, Israel's military chief of staff, Lieutenant-General Benny Gantz, was quoted as saying that Iran should expect more "unnatural" events in 2012.

    His comments, to a closed-door parliamentary panel in Jerusalem, were widely interpreted as alluding to previous acts of sabotage.
    http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...80A0FQ20120111

    Im shocked at how Israel is getting such a free ride on the scientist killings. They are terrorism, textbook terrorism. The Scientists being killed are NOT involved directly in the Iranian Nuclear program. Killing them serves no purpose besides scaring other scientists away from involvement in the program.

    They trying to create fear in a group of people, Terror if you will, in order to persuade them from a course of action.
    Allow me to repeat myself...
    He was a deputy director for commercial affairs at Natanz uranium enrichment facility.
    The Guardian reported that Ahmadi-Roshan was a chemistry expert specializing in making polymeric membranes for gaseous diffusion, part of the process needed for the enrichment of uranium."
    Their killing serves a perfectly reasonable purpose in hampering the ability of the Iranians to weaponize uranium.

    The hardest part in creating a nuclear device is enriching the uranium. Once the fissile material has been enriched, the construction of the device is pretty strait forward.

    This scientist's specialty was the hardest part of nuclear weaponization, making him a very attractive and viable target for covert activities.

    Lastly, let me address your statement that this killing (others preceding it) amounts to terrorism.

    Terrorism, in it's most broad definition is
    the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, especially for political purposes.
    Forgive me for saying so, but that's a ridiculously vague and broad definition, which could be construed to include a vast proportion of diplomatic interaction.

    By that definition, the US stating
    that closing the Strait of Hormuz is a “red line” that would provoke an American response, according to United States government officials.
    and also that
    Gen. Martin E. Dempsey, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said this past weekend that the United States would “take action and reopen the strait,” which could be accomplished only by military means
    , counts unequivocally as an act of Terrorism.

    It's a threat of the use of violence to coerce and intimidate Iran into not taking action against the Strait of Hormuz. This threat is most certainly a political calculation.

    Thus, a more narrow definition of terrorism needs to be made which will apply to the current situation more aptly.

    Terrorism in my eyes, has several hallmarks that separate it from military action. First the lack of a militarily viable target or action against such a target that takes no consideration of collateral damage. Second, and more importantly, the act must be intended to sew fear and discord through a populace generally, as opposed to attempting to achieve a larger strategic goal.

    I hope you can see the difference between terrorist action and a covert, strategic assassination.

    Unfortunately, I suspect that you make no such distinction, but I have nonetheless explained why I make it.

    That fact that you can consider the Mossad assassination in this case as an act of terrorism, boggles my mind.

    PS - good thread idea "what is your definition of terrorism?"

  3. #63
    Senior Member Critical Hit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mia_infp View Post
    Quran (2:191-193) - "And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]... but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah."

    Quran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not."

    Quran (4:74) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward."

    Quran (5:33)"The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"

    Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

    I could go on and on. The sheer number of verses advocating violence and hatred are staggering. You go ahead and have the debate with them about what the Koran really says while they are cutting off your head.

    Any rational person knows that certain Muslim groups’ interpretation of the Koran take these passages to mean kill people, and it doesn’t matter what the Koran supposedly or supposedly doesn’t say about peace or what these verses mean– they interpret it their way. Their way means convert or die. Their way means a messianic age can be ushered in by apocalyptic war that destroys the west and subjects everyone to Islam. And there is plenty of historical perspective to back this up.



    My favorite book on this topic is “Our Hands are Stained with Blood” by Michael Brown, however there are a great many good reads about it.

    Lack of facts isn’t our problem here. It’s flagrant disregard of them.
    Your lack of historical perspective extends just minutes in to this argument. You said it is part of the Muslim religion to kill Jews, I pointed out that you were completely full of shit. So you respond with a series of verses about killing some unspecified opponent. Considering they use the word "unbeliever" and the previous verse put Jews in the set "Believers" Im guessing none of them are talking about Jews.
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  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Are you an expert in Uranium Enrichment?

    Didn't think so...



    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mostafa_Ahmadi-Roshan



    What it is, is unsurprising to say the least.

    The CIA wouldn't touch this with a 10 foot pole.

    It was certainly the Mossad.



    http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...80A0FQ20120111



    Allow me to repeat myself...



    Their killing serves a perfectly reasonable purpose in hampering the ability of the Iranians to weaponize uranium.

    The hardest part in creating a nuclear device is enriching the uranium. Once the fissile material has been enriched, the construction of the device is pretty strait forward.

    This scientist's specialty was the hardest part of nuclear weaponization, making him a very attractive and viable target for covert activities.

    Lastly, let me address your statement that this killing (others preceding it) amounts to terrorism.

    Terrorism, in it's most broad definition is

    Forgive me for saying so, but that's a ridiculously vague and broad definition, which could be construed to include a vast proportion of diplomatic interaction.

    By that definition, the US stating and also that , counts unequivocally as an act of Terrorism.

    It's a threat of the use of violence to coerce and intimidate Iran into not taking action against the Strait of Hormuz. This threat is most certainly a political calculation.

    Thus, a more narrow definition of terrorism needs to be made which will apply to the current situation more aptly.

    Terrorism in my eyes, has several hallmarks that separate it from military action. First the lack of a militarily viable target or action against such a target that takes no consideration of collateral damage. Second, and more importantly, the act must be intended to sew fear and discord through a populace generally, as opposed to attempting to achieve a larger strategic goal.

    I hope you can see the difference between terrorist action and a covert, strategic assassination.

    Unfortunately, I suspect that you make no such distinction, but I have nonetheless explained why I make it.

    That fact that you can consider the Mossad assassination in this case as an act of terrorism, boggles my mind.

    PS - good thread idea "what is your definition of terrorism?"
    I already outlined the most common one in my original post(albeit badly) but another common way of defining it is "an act in peacetime that would be considered a warcrime during a war". In a war targeting scientists like that would be considered a war crime.
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  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Critical Hit View Post
    Your lack of historical perspective extends just minutes in to this argument. You said it is part of the Muslim religion to kill Jews, I pointed out that you were completely full of shit. So you respond with a series of verses about killing some unspecified opponent. Considering they use the word "unbeliever" and the previous verse put Jews in the set "Believers" Im guessing none of them are talking about Jews.
    The antisemitism that oozes out of the Koran is overwhelming. And yes, it outright says to wage war on them. Some take that to be a metaphorical war. Others take that to mean obtain nukes and blow them to kingdom come.

    For the wrongdoing Jews, Allah has prepared a painful doom. 4:160-1

    The Jews and the Christians are perverts; fight them. Koran 9:30

    Allah stamped wretchedness upon the Jews because they killed the prophets and disbelieved Allah's revelations. 2:61

    Allah turned Sabbath-breaking Jews into apes to be despised and hated. All modern Jews are descendants of apes (or all modern apes are descendants of Sabbath-breaking Jews). 2:65-66

    Christians and Jews (who believe in only part of the Scripture), will suffer in this life and go to hell in the next. 2:85

    Christians and Jews must believe what Allah has revealed to Muhammad or Allah will disfigure their faces or turn them into apes, as he did the Sabbath-breakers. (See 2:65-66) 4:47

    For the wrongdoing Jews, Allah has prepared a painful doom. 4:160-1

    Allah has cursed the Jews and hardened their hearts. Nearly all of them are treacherous. 5:12-13

    Christians are disbelievers for believing in the divinity of Christ. 5:17

    Don't take Jews or Christians for friends. If you do, then Allah will consider you to be one of them. 5:51

    Jews and Christians are evil-livers. 5:59

    Quoting all the verses is getting tiresome and is fundamentally unnecessary. They are whack jobs who want to commit genocide.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by mia_infp View Post
    The antisemitism that oozes out of the Koran is overwhelming. And yes, it outright says to wage war on them. Some take that to be a metaphorical war. Others take that to mean obtain nukes and blow them to kingdom come.

    For the wrongdoing Jews, Allah has prepared a painful doom. 4:160-1
    "So, because of the transgression of the Jews, We forbade them pure things which had been allowed to them, and also because of their hindering many men from Allah’s way. And because of their taking interest although they had been forbidden it, and because of their devouring peoples wealth wrongfully. And We have prepared for those of them, who disbelieve, a painful punishment."

    The Jews and the Christians are perverts; fight them. Koran 9:30
    "9:30 And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they!"

    Allah stamped wretchedness upon the Jews because they killed the prophets and disbelieved Allah's revelations. 2:61
    "2:61 And when ye said: O Moses! We are weary of one kind of food; so call upon thy Lord for us that He bring forth for us of that which the earth groweth - of its herbs and its cucumbers and its corn and its lentils and its onions. He said: Would ye exchange that which is higher for that which is lower ? Go down to settled country, thus ye shall get that which ye demand. And humiliation and wretchedness were stamped upon them and they were visited with wrath from Allah. That was because they disbelieved in Allah's revelations and slew the prophets wrongfully. That was for their disobedience and transgression. "

    Allah turned Sabbath-breaking Jews into apes to be despised and hated. All modern Jews are descendants of apes (or all modern apes are descendants of Sabbath-breaking Jews). 2:65-66
    lol wut

    Christians and Jews (who believe in only part of the Scripture), will suffer in this life and go to hell in the next. 2:85
    Not exactly anti-semitism. Might I remind you that in Christianity both Jews and Muslims go to hell.

    Christians and Jews must believe what Allah has revealed to Muhammad or Allah will disfigure their faces or turn them into apes, as he did the Sabbath-breakers. (See 2:65-66) 4:47
    What is it with Allah and turning people in to monkeys? Oooohhh... if you dont believe what I say God will do bad shit to you! Srs! Still no anti-semitism, just religion.

    For the wrongdoing Jews, Allah has prepared a painful doom. 4:160-1
    Deja Vu

    Allah has cursed the Jews and hardened their hearts. Nearly all of them are treacherous. 5:12-13
    "5:13 And because of their breaking their covenant, We have cursed them and made hard their hearts. They change words from their context and forget a part of that whereof they were admonished. Thou wilt not cease to discover treachery from all save a few of them. But bear with them and pardon them. Lo! Allah loveth the kindly."

    Christians are disbelievers for believing in the divinity of Christ. 5:17
    Semantics.

    Don't take Jews or Christians for friends. If you do, then Allah will consider you to be one of them. 5:51
    Funny, because a believing Christian wouldnt be friends with them either.

    "Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?" 2Cor 6:14

    Jews and Christians are evil-livers. 5:59
    Meh.

    mis-Quoting all the verses is getting tiresome and is fundamentally unnecessary.
    FTFY

    http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/2/

    She copied all of these notes from this website where the actual verses were in plain view. She knew she was misrepresenting them. [redacted]
    Last edited by Ivy; 02-18-2012 at 02:27 AM. Reason: personal attack removed
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  7. #67
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    Can we please calm down? This was supposed to be a discussion about the situation with nuclear weapons in Iran, not a flame war about religion.

    I know there is some overlap, but lets try to keep it civil, please.
    ...

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by mia_infp View Post
    Quoting all the verses is getting tiresome and is fundamentally unnecessary. They are whack jobs who want to commit genocide.
    Keep an open mind miss. I imagine most of those seem to be as critical hit suggested, strengthened misquotations. I'm guilty of looking them up myself. I'm bearing my own process of reading the Koran at current times. Only one seems to be partially true in interpretation. If you wish for me to re-quote all of them to you I may. I suppose a lot depends on the vision goggles you put on when looking at things. Here's an interesting starting point as a video about approaching the book in certain essence. Here

    Any rational person knows that certain Muslim groups’ interpretation of the Koran take these passages to mean kill people, and it doesn’t matter what the Koran supposedly or supposedly doesn’t say about peace or what these verses mean– they interpret it their way. Their way means convert or die. Their way means a messianic age can be ushered in by apocalyptic war that destroys the west and subjects everyone to Islam. And there is plenty of historical perspective to back this up.
    Indeed you are right. Interpretation is quite a key factor here, and then you have these groups, a rather small minority believing one thing and flashing themselves on the mass media who wholeheartedly shows and re-shows them to the rest of the world. The daily show with jihadists! A funny but almost true concept. As for the majority, it seems they're not too bent on any means of war... I wonder why? *sigh* I suppose I could just ask the majority instead of asking the jihadists. Maybe they'll tell me something different... but the majority should be wrong and the minority should be right, because that's all we're really seeing isn't it?

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Critical Hit View Post
    Your lack of historical perspective extends just minutes in to this argument. You said it is part of the Muslim religion to kill Jews, I pointed out that you were completely full of shit. So you respond with a series of verses about killing some unspecified opponent. Considering they use the word "unbeliever" and the previous verse put Jews in the set "Believers" Im guessing none of them are talking about Jews.
    Then she did provide you with the specified opponents didn't she?

    Anyway,

    Not condemning the Jews to their deaths or not the Koran does tend to put them in quite a bad light. This way they are actually brainwashing their believers (readers) to in a way hate them.

    When you are growing up if everyone says that the Jews are evil and that God would turn them into apes (lolz), you would probably grow up hating them too wouldn't you? It's that why the Koran is so dangerous.

    It makes its readers believe a certain group of people are evil and that GOD doesn't like them. So the readers (believers) would grow up thinking these people (despite what they have done in their lives) to actually be evil and deserving of death and genocide.

    The Koran tend to get very specific on its hatred. That is quite a dangerous thing. It should get a rating of atleast 21+. Heh.

    But in its fairness it does say -

    Those who believe, and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
    I guess as a Buddhist, I'll probably go to hell. Lolz.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Critical Hit View Post
    She copied all of these notes from this website where the actual verses were in plain view. She knew she was misrepresenting them. [redacted]
    Quit moving the cheese in order to feign a solid argument man. I went to the trouble of finding (scores of) verses as a contrast to your (one) verse to illustrate what zealots are using as their basis. Differences in Koran hermeneutics aren’t the issue, here. Islam isn’t the issue here. You wanted to make historical (and present) facts the issue, so in grace that’s where I’m engaging you. I’m not going to expend any further effort to prove the fact, both presently and historically, that there are factions of Islam that are militant against the Jews and it is motivated by their interpretation of their religion and that Iranian rhetoric and behavior self-identify it as one of those factions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrinth View Post
    Can we please calm down? This was supposed to be a discussion about the situation with nuclear weapons in Iran, not a flame war about religion.

    I know there is some overlap, but lets try to keep it civil, please.
    Attacks in an argument enter when the person lacks legitimate material to deal appropriately with the argument, and resorts to the illegitimate means of trying to push it through using intimidation. (Translation: he’s got nothing.)

    I am not calling all Muslims crazy. I am calling the religiously motivated Iranian leadership bat-shit-flipping-off-the-cliff-in-flames crazy. They are looking at crazy in the rear view mirror.

    And dude, glad to have another follower of the I Never Find Perfection cult here. *fist bump* But, given interaction with other types is sure to occur in your journey here, you may find that slightly less reactive skin will serve you well. That stated…. It’s time for some hug.

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