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  1. #11
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    If you're not the best, that means you're inferior to someone else, by definition.
    I repeat, she did not simply say that the US Constitution is inferior to some liberal democratic Constitutions, she said its inferior to that of Canada, South Africa, the member-states of the EU, and (by clear implication) just about any Constitution that was mostly written after 1940....i.e. most of them.

    I would also like to know why she recomended Constitutions with less free speech protections than the United States (something even her defenders have acknowledged) after previously speaking about the importance of free speech rights.

  2. #12
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    What the hell? That IS basically what she said.
    No, she explicitly ruled out the US Constitution-and not on situational criteria-before making her specific reccomendations.

  3. #13
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    No, she explicitly ruled out the US Constitution-and not on situational criteria-before making her specific reccomendations.
    She was saying that as far as human rights provisions (which Egypt would want to particularly emphasize) it would be better to look to more modern constitutions that were written explicitly to address such problems, such as South Africa, than our own, which, frankly, was not originally very strong in that department (and subsequently had to be amended in order to become so.) It was an entirely pragmatic statement that I can't believe is causing such a fuss, especially giventhe fact that the constitutions she recommended in lieu of ours nevertheless modeled many of its basic principles. I'm sure she's aware of this, and as such sees no need to go ahead and give the disclaimer that "no, no, I really love the constitution, but I think in this case...blah, blah, blah."
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  4. #14
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Fidelity to the US constitution shouldnt be a matter of pride if there is a legitimate comparison to be made with others which in some precise way are more exemplary.

    Sorry but the OP just sounds like an unsupported patriotic/nationalist grievance, like posting 'America, love it or leave it'.

    I'd really hope there's more to being a supreme court judge than that.

    Perhaps a proper comparative debate, discussion or even dispute about constitutions would be worthwhile but it doesnt sound like this thread is about that.

    What I would say is that the US constitution promises little or nothing to its citizens, and it delivers. There is a certain consistency in that. It also means that the legacies or privileges of the wealthy will never be encroached upon by entitlements in a pinch when no or slow growth wont cover it.

  5. #15
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    I repeat, she did not simply say that the US Constitution is inferior to some liberal democratic Constitutions, she said its inferior to that of Canada, South Africa, the member-states of the EU, and (by clear implication) just about any Constitution that was mostly written after 1940....i.e. most of them.

    I would also like to know why she recomended Constitutions with less free speech protections than the United States (something even her defenders have acknowledged) after previously speaking about the importance of free speech rights.
    Inferior or obsolete in what way? What is the reason for selecting a particular date as significant? Are there crucial conditions of modernity which could not have been anticipated by the founders of the US at stake or in evidence now?

    I perhaps dont know enough about the freedoms of speech in question here but I'm sure the US founding fathers hadnt anticipated the internet (although concerns on that front probably have more to do with copyright than child protection).

    Also there was a very clear idea of the US as an isolationist agrarian economy of independent small farmers or plantations at the time of the founding fathers drafting the constitution.

    Could they have anticipated the power of wall street? The keynesianism, acknowledged or denied, at the heart of every modern economy or even population growth and demography in modernity?

  6. #16
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    She was saying that as far as human rights provisions (which Egypt would want to particularly emphasize) it would be better to look to more modern constitutions that were written explicitly to address such problems, such as South Africa, than our own, which, frankly, was not originally very strong in that department (and subsequently had to be amended in order to become so.) It was an entirely pragmatic statement that I can't believe is causing such a fuss, especially giventhe fact that the constitutions she recommended in lieu of ours nevertheless modeled many of its basic principles. I'm sure she's aware of this, and as such sees no need to go ahead and give the disclaimer that "no, no, I really love the constitution, but I think in this case...blah, blah, blah."
    Sure she loves it....she simply loves the Constitutions of most other liberal democracies even more. That's called damning with faint praise.

    Incidentally, we are talking about the Constitution as it is currently written, not as it existed more than 200 years ago.

  7. #17
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Inferior or obsolete in what way? What is the reason for selecting a particular date as significant? Are there crucial conditions of modernity which could not have been anticipated by the founders of the US at stake or in evidence now?
    She is not particularly specific, she just emphasizes the age of the American Constitution (which, as so many people apparently think I didn't already know, has been amended several times) and reccomends newer ones (which, I might again add, have inferior free speech protection-which she had earlier singled out as a matter of particular importance-to the American Constitution), and explicitly says the American Constitution should not even be used as one reference out of many.

    We'll have to compare them side-by-side with the US Constitution to get a better idea of what she's thinking, I was already planning on doing that later.

    Edit: At a guess, its about so-called 'positive rights' and emphasizing government power redress material inequality (at the expense of individual liberty or limited government) in society, but to be fair it might also be about, say, the Civil Rights Act not actually being a technical part of the Constitution.

  8. #18
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Sure she loves it....she simply loves the Constitutions of most other liberal democracies even more. That's called damning with faint praise.

    Incidentally, we are talking about the Constitution as it is currently written, not as it existed more than 200 years ago.
    If there are other constitutions which have a framework fundamentally designed to address the kinds of issues pertinent to Egypt right now than the U.S. constitution, what is the problem with recommending those as better examples from which to work?
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  9. #19
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    But to be fair it might also be about, say, the Civil Rights Act not actually being a technical part of the Constitution.
    Considering the region, I thought it was fairly obvious that this is the sort of thing she was getting at.
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  10. #20
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    lol. So much fuss over saying it's old and that Constitutions that aren't hundreds of years old might be more relevant, particularly from a human rights perspective (not much regard for those when the US constitution was drafted).

    Americans crack me up. Not all of you, just some of you.
    -end of thread-

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