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  1. #21
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iwakar View Post
    Well Gingrich is grandiose. Doesn't he want an American moonbase ASAP or something to that effect?
    Yeah, he was going to take the Earth into a war against the Moon. They must have oil or something.

  2. #22
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nukethewhippet View Post
    When I say that there is nothing at the core of Libertarian philosophy, this is not to say that there is nothing there, but rather that the core of Libertarian philosophy is the deliberate dissembling of the structure of society and the replacement of that structure with, well, nothing.
    The example I used was deliberate, it contrasts the cuts in spending directed to people on modest incomes or benefits with the absolutely copper fastened and 100% secure spending directed to people in the fortune five hundred. Its the most transparent taking from the needy and giving to the greedy that there's ever been.

    A lot of what is in the libertarian agenda is intensely morally driven, its why its popular and appealing too because it seems "right" or "righteous", however that moralisng certainly does seem to be concerned primarily or completely with people at the bottom of the heap or end of the scale, if you got the riches you either are virtuous or invisible to most libertarians.

    Its not like there arent legitimate questions to be asked about public spending, welfare and other public services but like almost every other libertarian hot topic, like using drugs, its not as simplistic a sell as they make out.

  3. #23
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparrow View Post
    It would be awesome, but America is trillions of dollars in debt! We have other things to worry about right now. That's why he's an idiot for bringing that up, wrong time for sure.
    I'm not so sure it would be a bad thing. Lots of good has come from the space program in the form of technological spinoffs. And big projects like these have been culturally inspirational in the past. As far as the cost goes, it's not like this money would just disappear once it's spent. Much of that money would become paychecks for people who are currently unemployed, underemployed, or people changing jobs (freeing a spot at a different company for someone who is unemployed or underemployed), and that money would spent on things like food, clothing, etc that would employ others. It sure beats the government just printing money for the banks who invest it overseas, creating jobs in China.

    I guess my point is that not all government spending is equal. You have to look at the spending on a case by case basis to determine whether or not it is worthwhile. I get annoyed with Republicans who act like all government spending is bad (except for defense) and I get annoyed by Democrats who act like all government spending is good (except for defense).
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  4. #24
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Anyway, I've got a serious and honest question for the Paulistas.

    In summation I understand the libertarian philosophy in a nutshell to be that the market is self-regulating and approximates perfect competition, optimal allocative efficiency and equity without any intervention by any authority, usually identified as the state, sometimes also identified as consumers, workers/producers or (though not often) monopolies.
    Then you do not understand libertarian philosophy. Who on Earth would argue that? Honestly, I see you post about libertarianism ALL THE TIME, but you seem to have no idea what it means. You're positing some kind of magical market fundamentalism position that no libertarian I know has ever propagated. Seriously. Not one. And I've been an active libertarian for 15 years. Have you EVER read a major libertarian text?


    So apparent contradictions and problems in the economy issue from disconnections or distortions in price signals caused by the actions of the state.
    No. Just. . . no. The "economy" will have ups and down that are independent of state action. It's just that state action will almost never serve to fix that condition, and it will often make it much worse (see: Herbert Hoover and FDR during the Great Depression, the Fed during the tech bubble of the late-1990s, and pretty much everyone in the real estate/mortgage crisis).


    Right, so my question, given these theories is how did the executive wage inflation and boardroom pay culture (principally bonuses) which arose, especially in finance but also in some transglobal corporations, which does not appear to have any correlative relationship to shareholders dividends, company performance, especially in profit margins and market share, or to be in any ratio to remunerative rates of any other grades or personnel working for the same companies come about during a period of unprecidented deregulation?
    What "unprecedented deregulation" are you talking about, exactly?


    There is a situation in the UK presently where a bank which is 81% owned by the UK taxpayer is preparing to pay its executive £900,000, possibly in shares, as a bonus, in the year when crucial executive decision making has been restricted pretty much to "we will take the government/tax payers money", this follows repeated plees by politicians that the board "exercise restraint" which were met with the reply that £900,000 was a bonus was restraint as the executive had received two million as a bonus the previous year.

    Now in order to finance the bail out, including the money used to by the 81% share of this bank, a deficit was run up and the only way to reduce this deficit has been public sector pay freezes, the cutting of public sector pensions, cuts in benefits, cuts in state spending in all other areas besides money for the banks, which is assured and not discussed as no politicians wishes to create panic in the financial sector upon which the UK is dependent for more than 30% of its GDP.


    While in principle you could object to taxation and public spending, and in principle believe that pensions and benefits should be cut, I would suspect that as a legitimately self-interested tax payer you would expect there to be some return upon taxes paid. The average tax payer in the UK now can expect to pay the same or increased taxes with less or no hope of a return, either in the form of straight remuneration, if they are a benefits claimant, retire with a public pension or happen to be a public employee, or services, fire, rescue, police, social services, schools, health.

    It is obvious that the executives and board in the bank deciding upon the £900,000 bonus, this is a bonus now and is outside of what they earn annually which has already risen 42% in the last year when the average pay rise was less than 1%, took absolutely no contenence of this. It is also obvious that they did not have to take any contenence of this.

    My question to the Paulistas is how would further deregulation and laissez faire market forces remedy this situation, what is the market correction which could be expected to follow from libertarian economic policy as applied to this problem? Now, I dont want any vague "away back when..." narratives, no radical policies about every man and his dog being permitted to print up their own currencies provided they can get others to trust its value, no return to gold standards, no invisible hand promises. Basically cut the campaign message crap and tell me what remains.
    Don't bail out banks? Why the fuck should UK taxpayers own 81% of a bank? Let stupid ones fail, like they did in Iceland. Don't reward malinvestment.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Its not like there arent legitimate questions to be asked about public spending, welfare and other public services but like almost every other libertarian hot topic, like using drugs, its not as simplistic a sell as they make out.
    There are always going to be legitimate questions about public spending, it's just that I don't believe that Libertarian philosophy provides a set of answers that in any way serve to safeguard the overall public good.

    Sadly, their philosophy actually would provide for a simple solution to all of these issues.

    Drugs: They advocate the disestablishment of the responsibility of government to make laws regarding anything other the protection of property rights, the enforcement of contracts and physical non-aggression. Hence everything else, such as drug prohibition or clean water or food inspection would fall outside of the limits of their power.

    Public Spending: If all but the three above-mentioned functions of govt are outside their sphere, where would there be scope for public spending? The same answer applies for welfare and public services. These things simply would not exist because the frame of reference that would allow people to understand that this was something that government should or even could do would eventually be eliminated from the public consciousness.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    What "unprecedented deregulation" are you talking about, exactly?
    The repeal of the Glass-Steagal Act, which prohibited the merging of investment banks and retail banks would certainly qualify as an example of unprecedented deregulation.

    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Don't bail out banks? Why the fuck should UK taxpayers own 81% of a bank? Let stupid ones fail, like they did in Iceland. Don't reward malinvestment.
    Malinvestment should not be rewarded. However, among the people who stood to lose should the financial system not be thrown a life preserver were people that didn't "invest" in anything. Their only crime was to have their pay cheque go into a bank and to trust that bank with their savings. Those people would have been severely disadvantaged.

  7. #27
    Senior Member Sparrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I'm not so sure it would be a bad thing. Lots of good has come from the space program in the form of technological spinoffs. And big projects like these have been culturally inspirational in the past. As far as the cost goes, it's not like this money would just disappear once it's spent. Much of that money would become paychecks for people who are currently unemployed, underemployed, or people changing jobs (freeing a spot at a different company for someone who is unemployed or underemployed), and that money would spent on things like food, clothing, etc that would employ others. It sure beats the government just printing money for the banks who invest it overseas, creating jobs in China.

    I guess my point is that not all government spending is equal. You have to look at the spending on a case by case basis to determine whether or not it is worthwhile. I get annoyed with Republicans who act like all government spending is bad (except for defense) and I get annoyed by Democrats who act like all government spending is good (except for defense).
    America has bigger fish to fry right now. A program like that isnt going to give Americans all across the country that many jobs... I still think it was dumb for him to bring that up in a time like now, we are dealing with a budget crisis and economic struggle.
    Fe | Ni | Se | Ti ... 3w4 ... Lawful Neutral ... Johari -Nohari

  8. #28
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparrow View Post
    America has bigger fish to fry right now. A program like that is going to give Americans all across the country that many jobs... I still think it was dumb for him to bring that up in a time like now, we are dealing with a budget crisis and economic struggle.
    I agree that it was dumb. It makes him sound out of touch. If I was in his shoes, that would be one of the lowest priorities on my agenda (if it was on my agenda at all).
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  9. #29
    Senior Member Sparrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I agree that it was dumb. It makes him sound out of touch. If I was in his shoes, that would be one of the lowest priorities on my agenda (if it on my agenda at all).
    Totally - What a doofus!
    Fe | Ni | Se | Ti ... 3w4 ... Lawful Neutral ... Johari -Nohari

  10. #30
    Senior Member swordpath's Avatar
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