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  1. #71
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nozflubber View Post
    Hey mod(s)....

    Could you prossibly fragment meaningful conversations to an even greater degree than you have already done? Because I really love trying to list through Kiddo's horseshit semantics about things like what "capitalism" REALLY IS, and all that cool kid stuff. I need to make the distinction between human ideology and legitimate manifestations of human behavior because I just need to get it.

    I really do.

    THANKS BUTTERCUPS!

    Love,
    Noz
    A little late to the party with the ego bashing doncha think?

    I think for after 9 hours from conceding defeat, it is a bit much.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
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  2. #72
    Luctor et emergo Ezra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    I personally think anarcho-communism is representative of humans in their most primitive and natural state as is observed in the egalitarian and matriarchal society's of our closest hominid relative, the bonobo chimps.
    I agree.

    I think the conception of property is actually a religious idea that has lead to the manifestation of capitalism, and ultimately to the free market ideology.
    Please elaborate on this.

  3. #73
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nozflubber View Post
    I need to make the distinction between human ideology and legitimate manifestations of human behavior because I just need to get it. I really do.
    You're probably right.

    THANKS BUTTERCUPS!
    No problem, huggamuncha monchichi fuzzywuzzy huggybunny prettyprissypony snookums tastycake pumpkinbread yummygummytummy goofywoofy snickersbreath pinkcupcake!!




    ...sorry for the brief entertainment, you may all continue now.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #74
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    Please elaborate on this.
    Arg!

    From a logical standpoint, it is apparent that conflict is inevitable based on our need to compete for limited space and resources, and ultimately the most successful animals are those which form cohesive groups and acquire territory by force. Much like America has done. In essence, an "evolutionary" market is the opposite of a free market, because the former requires coercion or force and the latter is dependent upon an ethical implicit agreement to respect the concept of "property". As such, I believe capitalism and the free market are constructs meant to abate the evolutionary course for a world that favors individuals. This seems highly counterintuitive since individuals are still prone to follow the evolutionary course and form cohesive groups which will conquer via coercion and force unless they are compelled by moral or ethical reasons not to do so. Therefore, the free market and capitalism are probably theological constructs based on a religious/ethical driven desire to respect the concept of property.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  5. #75
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    Arg!

    From a logical standpoint, it is apparent that conflict is inevitable based on our need to compete for limited space and resources, and ultimately the most successful animals are those which form cohesive groups and acquire territory by force. Much like America has done. In essence, an "evolutionary" market is the opposite of a free market, because the former requires coercion or force and the latter is dependent upon an ethical implicit agreement to respect the concept of "property". As such, I believe capitalism and the free market are constructs meant to abate the evolutionary course for a world that favors individuals. This seems highly counterintuitive since individuals are still prone to follow the evolutionary course and form cohesive groups which will conquer via coercion and force unless they are compelled by moral or ethical reasons not to do so. Therefore, the free market and capitalism are probably theological constructs based on a religious/ethical driven desire to respect the concept of property.
    Non sequitur. Your conclusion is not supported by your argument. Whether or not capitalism is consistent with evolutionary principles has no bearing on whether or not it's a theological concept.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  6. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Non sequitur. Your conclusion is not supported by your argument. Whether or not capitalism is consistent with evolutionary principles has no bearing on whether or not it's a theological concept.
    Jeez, you are so annoying.

    So you are just going to ignore my argument that a free market requires an ethical implicit agreement to respect the concept of "property"? Especially since "property" is believed to be a Creator/ethical ordained right, and therefore, is a theological construct in itself.

    Yeah, totally not sequitur. :rolli: It's totally easy to make it so when you ignore half the argument.

    Of course if anyone wants to argue that the concept of "property" is not an idea that is grounded in religious belief, then I would love to hear it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
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  7. #77
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    Jeez, you are so annoying.

    So you are just going to ignore my argument that a free market requires an ethical implicit agreement to respect the concept of "property"? Especially since "property" is believed to be a Creator/ethical ordained right, and therefore, is a theological construct in itself.

    Yeah, totally not sequitur. :rolli: It's totally easy to make it so when you ignore half the argument.

    Of course if anyone wants to argue that the concept of "property" is not an idea that is grounded in religious belief, then I would love to hear it.
    It depends on what you mean by "religious." If you actually mean private property is grounded in a theocentric mindset, I would tend to disagree. Even more communitarian non-Abrahamic cultures such as the American Indians had personal property (your bow, your arrow, your tent), whilst not having real property, i.e., private land ownership. Different tribes had general land claims, however, and clashes arose from encroachment this way or that.

    If, on the other hand, you mean by "religious" that private property is part of an overarching Western ethical framework, I may have to agree. It certainly is a bedrock of societal organization in North America, Europe, and the Antipodes. How it came to be part of that framework is not so easily explained (certainly not by a simple "God said so" however many centuries ago).
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  8. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    It depends on what you mean by "religious." If you actually mean private property is grounded in a theocentric mindset, I would tend to disagree. Even more communitarian non-Abrahamic cultures such as the American Indians had personal property (your bow, your arrow, your tent), whilst not having real property, i.e., private land ownership. Different tribes had general land claims, however, and clashes arose from encroachment this way or that.
    The inherent idea of property was different with American Indians. For one, it wasn't "your bow, your arrow, your tent" it was "the bow, the arrow, the tent." Study just about any Native American language and you quickly find a lacking in possessive pronouns. The value in items was only in whatever you could trade for them. Individuals did not possess things in and of themselves and it would have been very rude to refuse a fair trade. You only "owned" things in the sense that you hadn't traded them yet. Not to mention they had absolutely no concept of owning land. The territorial concepts were like the evolutionary market I described in my earlier post, not anything like the free market principles that rely on a concept of property.

    If, on the other hand, you mean by "religious" that private property is part of an overarching Western ethical framework, I may have to agree. It certainly is a bedrock of societal organization in North America, Europe, and the Antipodes. How it came to be part of that framework is not so easily explained (certainly not by a simple "God said so" however many centuries ago).
    Exactly, the idea of property began as a God ordained concept, "a lord and his land", and has subsequently become an ethical right, mostly through the philosophies of the Enlightenment. However, whether you want to view it as "God ordained" or a "natural right" the fundamental idea is still theological.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
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  9. #79
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    Of course if anyone wants to argue that the concept of "property" is not an idea that is grounded in religious belief, then I would love to hear it.
    That's what you need to explain, that it is grounded in religious belief. I don't see how religion is the genesis of the concept of property.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  10. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    That's what you need to explain, that it is grounded in religious belief. I don't see how religion is the genesis of the concept of property.
    "Thou shall not steal" -1300 BC from the Ten Commandments.

    The first ever "legal" protection for property.

    The exception being Pharaohs and Sumerian rulers who, none the less, were seen as deities.

    Property was normally associated with royalty and the god ordained right to rule over the land and all its people. "Thou shall not steal" established the penalty of eternal damnation for anyone who would dare forcefully take something from someone else and basically overthrew the evolutionary concept of property.

    So I continue my argument, property is a theological construct and capitalism and the free market are based upon it, thereby making them theological constructs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

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