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  1. #61
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Here is my original argument with corrections since my definition of "natural" was not correct.

    I'm honestly starting to think capitalism and the free market are actually theological concepts, since their basis seems to be that of Creator/ethical ordained rights to own property. From a logical standpoint, it is apparent that conflict is inevitable based on our need to compete for limited space and resources, and ultimately the most successful animals are those which form cohesive groups and acquire territory by force. Much like America has done. In essence, an "evolutionary" market is the opposite of a free market, because the former requires coercion or force and the latter is dependent upon an ethical implicit agreement to respect the concept of "property". As such, I believe capitalism and the free market are constructs meant to abate the evolutionary course for a world that favors individuals. This seem highly counterintuitive since individuals are still prone to follow the evolutionary course and form cohesive groups which will conquer via coercion and force unless they are compelled by moral or ethical reasons not to do so. Therefore, the free market and capitalism are simply theological constructs based on a religious/ethical driven desire to respect the concept of property.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  2. #62
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
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    Split from Libertarian Purity Test. If you have a better name for the thread, let me know. The only other name I could think of is "Is Nocapszy God?"

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    Split from Libertarian Purity Test. If you have a better name for the thread, let me know. The only other name I could think of is "Is Nocapszy God?"
    Thanks, I suppose.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  4. #64
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
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    My thread title was way better.

  5. #65
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    My thread title was way better.
    I was trying to lighten some of the embarrassment on myself from ranting about an incorrect definition of "natural" for two hours , but since you like yours so much better...I'll change it back.

    I'm nothing if not accommodating.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  6. #66
    RETIRED CzeCze's Avatar
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    Hmm, I think you can find instances of cooperation and competition in lots of natural animal kingdom settings and human history, before all the political scientists tried to figure out ways to best control people.

    I do agree that a lot of concepts of property and commerce that seem natural to 'us' (assuming you grew up in a capitalistic Western-based system) aren't necessarily 'natural' they're man made.

    It makes me really wary when economists say things like, "natural systems are self-regulating, therefore the economy cannot crash because our economy is a natural system" or something like that (which students have told me) I'm just like are you kidding me?

    And US property laws came down from British common law and Spanish (and maybe French depending on where you are) ideas about property. The concept of property itself may or may not be natural, but how it's actually defined, the rights associated with it, concepts of 'public' and 'communal' vs. private property and all that are legally hashed out and heavily culturally influenced.

    People are social and pack animals, so it makes sense that communal living is 'natural' but I don't think that means the FLDS compound or polygamy is necessarily 'natural' and therefore 'right'. In fact, a lot of people (hippies) join communes and practice ALTERNATVIVE lifestyles precisely as an anecdote or escape from what is 'natural' to most people and the guidelines of mainstream society. Also, a lot of what gets called 'natural' also gets called 'divined by god' and/or 'correct' and these three things aren't necessarily the same thing. Even the whole 'modern primitives' movement is very much based on modern industrialized capitalistic culture, rather than 'nature'.

    (And hey, you wanna talk about communes! hahahaha, i got funny stories)

    Okay, I'm rambling now.
    “If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.” ― Oscar Wilde

    "I'm outtie 5000" ― Romulux

    Johari/Nohari

  7. #67
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    I think that capitalism did, in fact, evolve. Somewhere along the line, the concept of "mine" and "yours" came into practice, and voluntary exchange after that. This was LOOOOOOONG before modern capitalism or mercantilism.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  8. #68
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    "From a logical standpoint, it is apparent that conflict is inevitable based on our need to compete for limited space and resources, and ultimately the most successful animals are those which form cohesive groups and acquire territory by force."
    the problem with using physical force is that it makes it more likely for others to use physical force against you. there is therefore an economic cost of using physical force.

    in most cases, trade is more efficient than outright war for each side (since no one has to die or get their resources destroyed by physical force), unless one side is ridiculously unprotected. but if they're so unprotected, it's in their interest to put resources into protection, or to offer a service to another group for that group's protection.

    in fact, even killing people for their resources is a kind of trade. you must put effort into killing them, you have to live with the memory, you have to break through their defenses, you have to face moral qualms of your peers, etc.

    supply and demand even regulates that.

  9. #69
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    I think that capitalism did, in fact, evolve. Somewhere along the line, the concept of "mine" and "yours" came into practice, and voluntary exchange after that. This was LOOOOOOONG before modern capitalism or mercantilism.
    Capitalism as an extension of evolution...that isn't a bad argument.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  10. #70
    DoubleplusUngoodNonperson
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    Hey mod(s)....

    Could you prossibly fragment meaningful conversations to an even greater degree than you have already done? Because I really love trying to list through Kiddo's horseshit semantics about things like what "capitalism" REALLY IS, and all that cool kid stuff. I need to make the distinction between human ideology and legitimate manifestations of human behavior because I just need to get it.

    I really do.

    THANKS BUTTERCUPS!

    Love,
    Noz

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