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  1. #1
    / booyalab's Avatar
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    Default I have no Libertarian Socialist!

    Quote Originally Posted by Falcarius View Post
    Most of the ones I disagreed with were on economics, I am more or less a libertarian socialist.
    No such thing!

    Read some Milton Friedman, political freedom and economic freedom aren't mutually exclusive.
    I don't wanna!

  2. #2
    Senior Member reason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by booyalab View Post
    No such thing!
    There kinda is such a thing, kinda.

    The economic order which we often call the 'free market' is simply the order which tends to emerge when liberty prevails, but it is possible for a more socialist-like economic order to emerge under particular circumstances, even though the free-rider problem usually limits their size and renders their existence fleeting. For example, the Isreali Kibbutz and other similar commune-like arrangements have existed alongside liberty, because people were free to choose to live in that social order. However, traditional forms of socialism stand in contradiction to liberty, since they rarely tolerate those who decide to live differently.
    A criticism that can be brought against everything ought not to be brought against anything.

  3. #3
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nocturne View Post
    There kinda is such a thing, kinda.

    The economic order which we often call the 'free market' is simply the order which tends to emerge when liberty prevails, but it is possible for a more socialist-like economic order to emerge under particular circumstances, even though the free-rider problem usually limits their size and renders their existence fleeting. For example, the Isreali Kibbutz and other similar commune-like arrangements have existed alongside liberty, because people were free to choose to live in that social order. However, traditional forms of socialism stand in contradiction to liberty, since they rarely tolerate those who decide to live differently.
    I have to agree, up to a point. "Libertarian socialism" may be a misnomer, but the philosophy does exist. It's not fair when anarchists/anarcho-syndicalists/communist anarchists say there is no such thing as anarcho-capitalism or individualist anarchism, and that is basically the same criticism.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    I have to agree, up to a point. "Libertarian socialism" may be a misnomer, but the philosophy does exist. It's not fair when anarchists/anarcho-syndicalists/communist anarchists say there is no such thing as anarcho-capitalism or individualist anarchism, and that is basically the same criticism.
    There are people who have called themselves libertarian socialists, and there is a body of thought which we can call libertarian socialism. I do not think that even booyalab is claiming that this is not so, but more likely claiming that no such system of libertarian socialism can be put into practice, because any such system would be inconsistent or at least impossible to reconcile with the limits and constraints of reality. Of course, if you disagree about the constraints, if any, which reality imposes then you might be inclined to think that it is possible to put such a system into practice, and that something like classic libertarianism is the one which is inconsistent or impossible to reconcile with the limits and constraints of reality.

    The claim which I think booyalab is making is that socialism is inherently inconsistent with liberty, or at least that reality will not allow for the ideals of both to be sustained simultaneously. I disagree, though to some extent I am nitpicking. Technically, a socialist-like economic order is not inconsistent with liberty, though I do think that such orders will be rare and unstable.
    A criticism that can be brought against everything ought not to be brought against anything.

  5. #5
    Senior Member nemo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nocturne View Post
    There are people who have called themselves libertarian socialists, and there is a body of thought which we can call libertarian socialism. I do not think that even booyalab is claiming that this is not so, but more likely claiming that no such system of libertarian socialism can be put into practice, because any such system would be inconsistent or at least impossible to reconcile with the limits and constraints of reality. Of course, if you disagree about the constraints, if any, which reality imposes then you might be inclined to think that it is possible to put such a system into practice, and that something like classic libertarianism is the one which is inconsistent or impossible to reconcile with the limits and constraints of reality.

    The claim which I think booyalab is making is that socialism is inherently inconsistent with liberty, or at least that reality will not allow for the ideals of both to be sustained simultaneously. I disagree, though to some extent I am nitpicking. Technically, a socialist-like economic order is not inconsistent with liberty, though I do think that such orders will be rare and unstable.
    Wasn't Bertrand Russell something of a libertarian socialist? I swear I read that somewhere, but I'm having trouble finding it.

    Sorry, saw your sig and connected the two.
    You can't wait for inspiration. You have to go after it with a club. - Jack London

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by nocturne View Post
    I disagree, though to some extent I am nitpicking. Technically, a socialist-like economic order is not inconsistent with liberty, though I do think that such orders will be rare and unstable.
    On the contrary, you're not nitpicking enough. Socialism is a "dictatorship of the proletariat". Communism is "economic cooperation". Dictatorships and the free market are not even theoretically compatible.
    I don't wanna!

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by booyalab View Post
    On the contrary, you're not nitpicking enough. Socialism is a "dictatorship of the proletariat". Communism is "economic cooperation". Dictatorships and the free market are not even theoretically compatible.
    Well, I doubt that Libertarian Socialists think that liberty and tyranny are consistent, and so I doubt that they equate Socialism with a form of dictatorship. However, I do not think that it is worth quarrelling over the definition of those terms. Of course, if Libertarian Socialism is a form of Libertarian Tyrannyism, then it would be transparantly self-contradictory.
    A criticism that can be brought against everything ought not to be brought against anything.

  8. #8
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
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    Split from Libertarian Purity Test. Stay tuned for more splitting coming your way, only on MBTIc. We know semantics.

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