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  1. #11
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    A major part? Really? And its not clear what it means?
    Oh, well, I'd agree with what he said.

    I know you and I have thrown sparks on this topic a number of times; but realistically, I was part of that culture for my entire life until about four years ago and it's a very vocal part of the evangelical experience. There's a large focus on how the culture is moving away from a "Christian nation" (exemplified by life in the 50's, where Christian God and country were part and parcel, prayer in schools to the Christian God was a standard, mom stayed at home and dad worked and was an authority in the house, etc.) Then the 60's-70's happened (free love, drugs, Roe vs. Wade, influx of foreign culture, 'rock' music) and the cultural landscape significantly began to change. Eastern thought started filtering into the country in the 70's.

    The diversity is seen as bad in the sense it confuses matters, in terms of what people should believe and how they should live; since Christianity was already at the pinnacle in the culture, any shift is a loss of conservative Christian influence.

    In the 80's, especially with the downfall of the communists late in that decade (which resulted in a loss of our cultural enemy, the USSR), focus shifted onto hot button issues... abortion and gay rights. Evangelicals wanted to reclaim lost ground and win the culture wars, restoring the nation for Jesus and having us become a godly nation again. Intentions are good, but obviously non-evangelicals don't agree on this being the path that needs to be chosen. There's also a strong opinion that America's leaders need to reflect Christian values, or they will lead the country astray as has been happening over the last few decades; at least on the bottom level, on the voter level, they want to vote for someone who "seems like a good Christian" and at least can express the values of evangelical Christians. I don't know how many times I've overheard or engaged family, friends, church people, etc., on the matter; and that is the main argument used in regards to who to vote for: They vote for someone who shares the same religious beliefs. If they honor God by voting for Christians, God will honor them and fix the country.

    (I'm not making this up, I am quoting what I have heard again and again from the pulpit, from church bible studies, from church conferences, from Christian books, from Christian musicians, etc.)

    How much exposure to US evangelical thought do you get in Ireland? I'm not sure if there is a large influence there or not.

    Anyway, thank you for explaining and clarifying what you meant.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #12
    sswwwaagggg gmanyo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Generally I dont agree with evangelical christians and I definitely dont support Gingrich but there's something about the OP which grates with me
    That might be because I am overly angry about said subjects, and am a bit (okay, more than a bit) vocal about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    perhaps there is hypocrisy involved here but there's not much in the way of a properly informed view of what the opinions are and why they are being held in the first place.
    I would argue that I know the opinions at least to an extent since, being at a Christian missionary school, I'm surrounded by people who hold them. Their opinions may differ from the views of the evangelicals in the United States, but from what I've seen their fairly consistent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    A major part? Really? And its not clear what it means?
    That statement in particular was really just me being an asshole and trying to make a point that I think that it's not really a concern right now. But I guess I should't have said it mainly because my argument is not against their position itself but against how they seem to be abandoning their core beliefs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    There's clearly not an understanding of what the objections, which neednt necessarily be Christian, to so called gay "marriage" are if you consider that comparable or equivocal to the issue of divorce, its not.
    I think they are almost always Christian in the sense of arguing about moral decay. There are other arguments against gay marriage (I think Ron Paul actually thinks that marriage in general should not be dealt with at a Federal level, though I'd have to double check) but those aren't the ones I'm referring to.

    My point was that Christians are worried that there is a slippery slope when it comes to gay marriage; that they think it will lead to the moral decay of marriage. I've heard people argue "What's next? Paedophelia? Bestiality?" which is not a good argument. But I think that in reality divorce is a much bigger issue, especially in such circumstances surrounding Gingrich's ones, so I sense that morality is not so much an issue as money and fear of those that are different, even though conservative evangelicals parade the idea that morality is of utmost importance.

    If I came off as sounding like an angry arrogant asshole it's probably because I am. Sorry.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Oh, well, I'd agree with what he said.
    Me or Lark?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Evangelicals wanted to reclaim lost ground and win the culture wars, restoring the nation for Jesus and having us become a godly nation again. Intentions are good, but obviously non-evangelicals don't agree on this being the path that needs to be chosen. There's also a strong opinion that America's leaders need to reflect Christian values, or they will lead the country astray as has been happening over the last few decades; at least on the bottom level, on the voter level, they want to vote for someone who "seems like a good Christian" and at least can express the values of evangelical Christians. I don't know how many times I've overheard or engaged family, friends, church people, etc., on the matter; and that is the main argument used in regards to who to vote for: They vote for someone who shares the same religious beliefs. If they honor God by voting for Christians, God will honor them and fix the country.
    My problem right now is that the people that most Conservative Evangelicals are voting for are so far from "good Christians" that its flabbergasting that people think that they are.

    Actually, my biggest beef with the evangelical conservative movement is the hypocrisy of focusing on social issues like gay rights and not on ones like the poor. I really have a problem when people are talking about lowering taxes on the rich and say things like "What right does the government have to take their hard earned money, then give it to poor people who are lazy and will just squander the money?" For one, the lives of the poor suck. There is a point that some people take advantage of social programs, but there are plenty of poor people that work their asses off and never get anywhere. There is more luck than hard work involved in getting rich. Also, there are like, 6 passages about homosexuality and about a million about helping the poor. I understand if they're arguing the position that lowering restraints on the rich and large business owners will help the economy. I just don't get the "Christian" argument about defending the rights of the rich but ignoring the repression of poor.
    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    I'm starting to see you and your avatar as a cloud of odor that eminates from trashy threads.

  3. #13
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gmanyo View Post
    Me or Lark?
    Since I was talking to Lark, "he" would have been referring to the other person, the Not Lark... i.e., you.

    My problem right now is that the people that most Conservative Evangelicals are voting for are so far from "good Christians" that its flabbergasting that people think that they are.
    I know. I have always had trouble getting my mind around it, I've had issues in every election. I remember when Bush used the hardcore conservatives in SC in 2000 to get the nomination over McCain (who, at the time, I had respected), especially by spreading slurs and innuendo about his wife and his kids; and I was disgusted that Bush allowed it. To me, a vocal Christian would have told his supporters to knock that stuff off; but Bush was an opportunist. I have many more examples where that came from, but I just don't understand how doing lip service to conservative christian policy counts as "christian virtue" when character does not conform to said virtues.

    Actually, my biggest beef with the evangelical conservative movement is the hypocrisy of focusing on social issues like gay rights and not on ones like the poor.
    I think that is one of the failings of US morality debate... that the church places hot-button issues like the gay rights or abortion issues above that of much more prevalent issues... homeless, the poor, the disenfranchised. One of my best friends, another INTP who was a missionary in Haiti for a few years, feels the same way. But the issue of the homeless and the poor is not as burning/immediate one as the other issues, I guess, and solutions are not clear (you can't legislate hunger away), so I guess it sits on the backburner.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #14
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Evangelicals are willing to overlook Gingrich's transgressions because they're more afraid of socialism and Islam. They really believe that Obama is a Muslim socialist. I know that doesn't make any sense to someone who is educated on this matter, but we're talking about a group of people that refuses to believe in evolution despite its overwhelming evidence. They believe we are fighting a spiritual war against Satan. In the 20th century, Satan took on the guise of communism. In the 21st century, Satan has taken on the guise of Islam. If you show an evangelical evidence that refutes their position, they will not accept it because it's a "lie from the devil". The only evidence they are willing to accept is evidence that supports what they already believe.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  5. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Evangelicals are willing to overlook Gingrich's transgressions because they're more afraid of socialism and Islam. They really believe that Obama is a Muslim socialist. I know that doesn't make any sense to someone who is educated on this matter, but we're talking about a group of people that refuses to believe in evolution despite its overwhelming evidence. They believe we are fighting a spiritual war against Satan. In the 20th century, Satan took on the guise of communism. In the 21st century, Satan has taken on the guise of Islam. If you show an evangelical evidence that refutes their position, they will not accept it because it's a "lie from the devil". The only evidence they are willing to accept is evidence that supports what they already believe.
    In that respect they remind me of many supposedly scientific liberal atheists.

  6. #16
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    In that respect they remind me of many supposedly scientific liberal atheists.
    You're free to start your own thread about how much you hate the liberal atheists in Ireland. I'm sure it will be the longest thread ever created on typology.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  7. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    You're free to start your own thread about how much you hate the liberal atheists in Ireland. I'm sure it will be the longest thread ever created on typology.
    I'm sorry what? American threads for American posters? I know you're afraid of debate but that's a bit much surely.

  8. #18
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I'm sorry what? American threads for American posters? I know you're afraid of debate but that's a bit much surely.
    You know almost nothing about the group being discussed in this thread, American evangelical Christians, but you're doing your best to derail this thread. I believe your posts are best suited for the graveyard, troll.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  9. #19
    Senior Member Turtledove's Avatar
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    I'm of the Evangelical type and I think Newt Gingrich is the biggest boil on the butt of the Republican candidates. Don't stereotype.
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  10. #20
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Turtledove View Post
    I'm of the Evangelical type and I think Newt Gingrich is the biggest boil on the butt of the Republican candidates. Don't stereotype.
    I don't think anyone is telling you what your political preferences are, but Gingrinch did just win South Carolina.

    However, I'll point out (kind of in support of what you said) that the largest group of evangelical leaders a week or two (including Dobson, who was credited in the past as being a 'kingmaker' in the conservative political circles) voted to support Santorum, who i think even more reflects both their values and the kind of image they want to project for a viable political candidate. Gingrinch came up wanting.

    I expect this support to shift over to Gingrinch (as opposed to Romney) if Santorum drops out, but obviously Santorum was their most suitable candidate of choice.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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