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  1. #41
    Member Mr. TickTock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    "... I see little to no reason why we can't just discuss economics as a whole. Why limit this thread to Germany? I mean sure you have to right too and you can do that if you please. But...Why? As he stated. It is not a German issue. It is a human issue and should be treated as such. I feel like by just talking about Germany your limiting the discussion. "

    Just because someone discusses German economics doesn't mean they are limiting the discussion, they are discussing the particular topic they want to discuss -- the economy of Germany. If they wanted to discuss the world economy in more detail, then that is what they would be discussing.

    You should be able to extrapolate from there.




    Why would you use the example I just sad was a bad metaphor.....

    Anyway I'm pretty sure I made it clear that German economics can be discussed just as good as any other economic. You can go deep into German economics. Just as you can American economics and so fourth. Their is a lot to discuss within 1 category. Suicide is different. Its less broad of a topic. By limiting it to gays I feel as if your limiting it to the point of not really worth discussing.



    I don't even really care much about the topic, but there's certainly nothing wrong with it from a logical perspective
    I also don't care much about the topic at hand..But maybe some people would be more interesting if the topic was not so..limited.

    Of course logically there is nothing wrong. But it can be improved upon and expanded upon which could possibly improve interest.

    I feel as if we are taking this thread off topic. I really think we should not continue this discussion anymore but I don't want you to believe I'm simply being immature just to get the last word or something. Feel free to PM me about it. But you said you really don't care much about the topic so I doubt you will.
    Glance into the world just as though time were gone: and everything crooked will become straight to you.

  2. #42
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. TickTock View Post
    By limiting it to gays I feel as if your limiting it to the point of not really worth discussing.
    That is probably where you two disagree.

    Of course accusing someone of limiting the topic makes very little sense if what they are limiting it to is the topic itself (see: thread title).

  3. #43

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    @ Moderation

    Perhaps we need a step-by-step instruction page replete with arrows and color images and large text on 'how to create your own thread.'
    "The purpose of life is to be defeated by greater and greater things." - Rainer Maria Rilke

  4. #44
    Member Mr. TickTock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iwakar View Post
    @ Moderation

    Perhaps we need a step-by-step instruction page replete with arrows and color images and large text on 'how to create your own thread.'

    Well I tried hard enough not to derail this thread but since this obvious amount of disrespect is going to continue.



    If you would like to say something PM me. Visitor wall me. I generally don't care how you contact. I would be happy to argue with you about it.

    I'm surprised such an easy mob mentality come across even on the internet. I mean at least they used a decent amount of logic and reasoning within this post. And to each one I replied privately trying not to derail this thread. I just find it quite disrespectful and not funny you just come along and hop on such bandwagon. If you want my reasoning. Ask me. Don't patronize me.

    I wonder if this mob mentality has to do with the guy who originally started the idea. He seems quite infamous. I guess agreeing with someone people don't like is wrong? Funny as soon as I agreed with him someone told me "He's a troll.". Just that. No other information. Not why he's a troll. As if my opinion should not be allowed to be anything like his.

    Don't mistake this as any sort of annoyance or anger. Because I'm sure someone out there is going to be like "Well this guy is butthurttt.lol This is the interwebz. Chillax.".
    Glance into the world just as though time were gone: and everything crooked will become straight to you.

  5. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. TickTock View Post
    If you want my reasoning. Ask me.
    I don't. And if you want my reasoning, don't ask me.
    "The purpose of life is to be defeated by greater and greater things." - Rainer Maria Rilke

  6. #46
    Member Mr. TickTock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iwakar View Post
    I don't. And if you want my reasoning, don't ask me.
    If you don't want it then don't comment on it.
    Glance into the world just as though time were gone: and everything crooked will become straight to you.

  7. #47

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    Gratis Wiki:
    According to the National Institute of Mental Health, suicide contagion is a serious problem, especially for young people. Suicide can be facilitated in vulnerable teens by exposure to real or fictional accounts of suicide, including media coverage of suicide, such as intensive reporting of the suicide of a celebrity or idol.[16]
    The bolded surprised me, not so much the rest:

    The likelihood of suicide attempts are increased in both gay males and lesbians, as well as bisexuals of both sexes when compared to their heterosexual counterparts.[20][21][22] The trend of having a higher incident rate among females is no exception with lesbians or bisexual females and when compared with homosexual males, lesbians are more likely to attempt than gay or bisexual males.[23]

    Studies vary with just how increased the risk is compared to heterosexuals with a low of 0.8-1.1 times more likely for females[24] and 1.5-2.5 times more likely for males.[25][26] The highs reach 4.6 more likely in females[27] and 14.6 more likely in males.[28]

    Race and age play a factor in the increased risk. The highest ratios for males are attributed to caucasians when they are in their youthhood. By the age of 25, their risk is down to less than half of what it was however black gay males risk steadily increases to 8.6 times more likely. Through a lifetime the risks are 5.7 for white and 12.8 for black gay and bisexual males. Lesbian and bisexual females have opposite effects with less attempts in youthhood when compared to heterosexual females. Through a lifetime the likelihood to attempt nearly triple the youth 1.1 ratio for caucasian females, however for black females the rate is affected very little (less than 0.1 to 0.3 difference) with heterosexual black females having a slightly higher risk throughout most of the age-based study.[28]

    Gay and lesbian youth who attempt suicide are disproportionately subject to anti-gay attitudes, and have weaker skills for coping with discrimination, isolation, and loneliness,[28][29] and were more likely to experience family rejection[30] than those who do not attempt suicide. Another study found that gay and bisexual youth who attempted suicide had more feminine gender roles,[31] adopted an LGB identity at a young age and were more likely than peers to report sexual abuse, drug abuse, and arrests for misconduct.[31]

    One study found that same-sex sexual behavior, but not homosexual attraction or homosexual identity, was significantly predictive of suicide among Norwegian adolescents.[32] In Denmark, the age-adjusted suicide mortality risk for men in registered domestic partnerships was nearly eight times greater than for men with positive histories of heterosexual marriage and nearly twice as high for men who had never married.[33]
    ^It was relevant information, but the 'Sexual orientation and suicide' chapter did not show stats within the stats to identify minors from adults.
    "The purpose of life is to be defeated by greater and greater things." - Rainer Maria Rilke

  8. #48
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iwakar View Post
    Gratis Wiki:


    The bolded surprised me, not so much the rest:

    lesbians are more likely to attempt than gay or bisexual males.
    In general, it's long been true that men are more likely to successfully commit suicide, although women are more likely to attempt suicide... so not sure it's that different for LBGT folks.

    Still, I think this is an interesting topic (and not just because I'm gay). First, there is the confounding factor of being unable to identify how many LGBT youth there actually are. This makes it hard to accurately estimate actually depression and suicide rates, when one can't reliable tell the size of the population.

    Secondly, despite that, it's pretty clear that the depression and suicide rate for LGB teens is high. Wikipedia says: "Numerous studies have shown that lesbian, gay, and bisexual youth have a higher rate of suicide attempts than do heterosexual youth. The Suicide Prevention Resource Center synthesized these studies and estimated that between 30 and 40% of LGB youth, depending on age and sex groups, have attempted suicide." Transgendered folks seem to fall in the same 30% to 40% range (although it's much lower for those who have transitioned). So, the prevalence of suicide among this demographic makes it an important issue. Also, it's estimated that 20 to 40 percent of homeless youth population who are gay or transgender, compared to only 5 to 10 percent of the overall youth population. Clearly LGBT youth are particularly vulnerable in a number of ways. Happy, supported children generally don't feel compelled to run away from home or attempt suicide.

    Thirdly, studies have shown that policy that specifically addresses anti-gay bullying makes the environment safer for everyone (as opposed to generic "anti-bullying" policies). Remember that straight people can be picked on for being perceived to be gay (or insufficiently straight), even though they are straight. Despite efforts like Tennessee's "Don't Say Gay" bill, directly addressing categories of bullying (whatever they may be) makes a real difference.

    Fourthly, I think we are at an interesting time right now culturally. While the culture at large has become more accepting of LGBT people, specific families, schools and communities may be far less accepting. This creates a climate in which a particular individual may feel compelled to come out, but then may be retaliated against in unexpected ways. Social media compounds this issue, where what once might have been private reactions are made public. This means that LGBT issues are now more visible than they have been in the past, even as the future for LBGT youth looks better than it has historically.

    So, I think media influence (both providing positive role models, and providing material that generates "copy cat" suicides) is something well worth discussing. How LGBT people are portrayed in media has gone from scare reports like Mike Wallace's The Homosexuals in 1967, to the more varied depictions today. Today there are LBG (and very occasionally T) characters on sitcoms and reality TV shows, even while anti-LGBT groups like the Family Research Council are still invited to opine new programs.

  9. #49
    Diabolical Kasper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. TickTock View Post
    Well I agree with him on the whole gay issue. I see little to no reason why we can't just discuss suicide as a whole. Why limit this thread to gays? I mean sure you have to right too and you can do that if you please. But...Why? As he stated. It is not a gay issue. It is a human issue and should be treated as such. I feel like by just talking about gays your limiting the discussion.
    If your question is genuine then Lark is well known for his anti-gay stance, given an opportunity he will express this.

    If you do not share his anti-gay view then the reason is simple: It is not limiting the topic, it is pin pointing a higher risk group.

    As teen suicide can be a focused topic separate from suicide because suicide amongst teens is disproportionate to the rest of the population, so too can LGBT teen suicide be a separate topic to teen suicide as it is disproportionate to the teen population. Those that are at a higher risk deserve greater resources. It's simple math.

    In addition to that, LGBT teen suicide is often directly related to their struggle with being accepted as LGBT, which means it would be remiss to ignore their sexuality or gender identity when discussing suicide.

    But don't take my word for it, this has been studied: http://pediatrics.aappublications.or...-3020.abstract

    The Social Environment and Suicide Attempts in Lesbian, Gay, and Bisexual Youth
    Mark L. Hatzenbuehler, PhD

    Objective: To determine whether the social environment surrounding lesbian, gay, and bisexual youth may contribute to their higher rates of suicide attempts, controlling for individual-level risk factors.

    Methods: A total of 31 852 11th grade students (1413 [4.4%] lesbian, gay, and bisexual individuals) in Oregon completed the Oregon Healthy Teens survey in 2006–2008. We created a composite index of the social environment in 34 counties, including (1) the proportion of same-sex couples, (2) the proportion of registered Democrats, (3) the presence of gay-straight alliances in schools, and (4) school policies (nondiscrimination and antibullying) that specifically protected lesbian, gay, and bisexual students.

    Results: Lesbian, gay, and bisexual youth were significantly more likely to attempt suicide in the previous 12 months, compared with heterosexuals (21.5% vs 4.2%). Among lesbian, gay, and bisexual youth, the risk of attempting suicide was 20% greater in unsupportive environments compared to supportive environments. A more supportive social environment was significantly associated with fewer suicide attempts, controlling for sociodemographic variables and multiple risk factors for suicide attempts, including depressive symptoms, binge drinking, peer victimization, and physical abuse by an adult (odds ratio: 0.97 [95% confidence interval: 0.96–0.99]).

    Conclusions: This study documents an association between an objective measure of the social environment and suicide attempts among lesbian, gay, and bisexual youth. The social environment appears to confer risk for suicide attempts over and above individual-level risk factors. These results have important implications for the development of policies and interventions to reduce sexual orientation–related disparities in suicide attempts.
    So you have a 4.2% of hetro teens at risk of attempting suicide vs 21.5% of LGBT ones, and amongst the LGBT teens you have a 20% greater chance of those in unsupportive environments, so the reason for this being a topic on it's own is clear that the only people who could question it would do so in the name of their own biases.


    In terms of the media aspect, it is known that detailing suicides will result in a spike of attempts, with that in mind I believe that they do have a responsibility to work with organisations that combat suicide to know what they should avoid. There was a really good talk program on ABC here some time ago on exactly that topic but alas I can't find it.

  10. #50

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    The media isn't factored in, however I was just watching a documentary on Netflix called 'For The Bible Tells Me So' which gives broad coverage to biblical interpretation and biblically sanctioned gay-bashing, and at about 1:04:00 into it they share some stats:

    Gay and lesbian people are three to seven times more likely to attempt suicide (than heterosexuals).
    Approximately every 5 hours an LGBT teen commits suicide.
    ^And for every one that succeeds, twenty others try.

    I do not know their sources.
    "The purpose of life is to be defeated by greater and greater things." - Rainer Maria Rilke

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