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  1. #91
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mal12345 View Post
    The cartoon has nothing to do with women's legal rights and everything to do with men's oppressive societal expectations regarding women.
    As I said, you cannot pretend to take this cartoon out of the social context you see in predominantly Muslim countries. Here, laws are the direct result of what you call "men's oppressive societal expectations regarding women".

    And let me remind you that I live in such a country.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  2. #92
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    As I said, you cannot pretend to take this cartoon out of the social context you see in predominantly Muslim countries. Here, laws are the direct result of what you call "men's oppressive societal expectations regarding women".

    And let me remind you that I live in such a country.
    So?
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by mal12345 View Post
    So?
    So I see the difference every day.

    When such oppression is written in the law, it is different.

    ----

    In the Western world, as far as I know, there's no law requiring that women should wear bikinis. They have a choice, it's theirs.

    Here, they don't. And unfortunately, there's plenty of other activities that women are not allowed to do.

    The lack of something is not equal to the enjoyment of something. The lack of liberty is not the same experience as enjoying this liberty.

    The cartoon you posted is reminding me, somehow, of how Apartheid proponents tried to justify their political system a few decades ago, as morally on par with the other Western democracies. Was it true?
    Last edited by Blackmail!; 01-24-2012 at 02:21 PM.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  4. #94
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    So I see the difference every day.

    When such oppression is written in the law, it is different.

    ----

    In the Western world, as far as I know, there's no law requiring that women should wear bikinis. They have a choice, it's theirs.

    Here, they don't.

    The lack of something is non equal to the enjoyment of something. The lack of liberty is not the same experience as enjoying this liberty.

    The cartoon you posted is reminding me, somehow, of how Apartheid proponents tried to justify their political system a few decades ago, as morally on par with the other Western democracies. Was it true?

    The Muslim woman in the cartoon does not appear to feel oppressed by any laws, in fact she feels sorry for the other woman.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by mal12345 View Post
    The Muslim woman in the cartoon does not appear to feel oppressed by any laws, in fact she feels sorry for the other woman.

    Sometimes, the slave chooses its fate, gets accustomed to it and is persuaded that freedom is a curse. Have you read Hegel by the way?

    But most women I know here (especially educated ones) wouldn't think the same way as the woman pictured in this cartoon. But the fact is, they are not allowed to publicly say it; and that is another BIG difference between here and there.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  6. #96
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    Sometimes, the slave chooses its fate, gets accustomed to it and is persuaded that freedom is a curse. Have you read Hegel by the way?

    But most women I know here wouldn't think the same way as the woman pictured in this cartoon. But the fact is, they are not allowed to publicly say it; and that is another BIG difference between here and there.
    The cartoon is not trying to point out the obvious differences. We all know about the biased laws against women in the Middle East. The cartoon however is pointing to a subtle similarity which you have missed, probably because you live there. So it works both ways, doesn't it.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by mal12345 View Post
    The cartoon however is pointing to a subtle similarity which you have missed, probably because you live there. So it works both ways, doesn't it.
    There is NO similarity between Non-A and +A.

    Simple matter of logic.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  8. #98
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    There is NO similarity between Non-A and +A.

    Simple matter of logic.
    Is it logical for you to say that you get it because of where you live, and that I don't get it because of where I live?

    Anyway, the Muslim woman is apparently one of those the slaves that chooses its fate, gets accustomed to it and is persuaded that freedom is a curse.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by mal12345 View Post

    Anyway, the Muslim woman is apparently one of those the slaves that chooses its fate, gets accustomed to it and is persuaded that freedom is a curse.
    Exactly, and this is why this cartoon looks rather unrealistic when you know what is really going on here. What the woman in Niqab depicted here is supposed to think is in fact what her husband/brother/imam will say for her, not what she probably really thinks. As a matter of fact, in these countries, what women think is considered to be irrelevant.

    So it is a form of subtle political propaganda, because it tries to make us believe such oppression and systematic discrimination is only a matter of different cultural viewpoints, and as such should be tolerated and accepted.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  10. #100
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    Exactly, and this is why this cartoon looks rather unrealistic when you know what is really going on here. What the women in Niqab depicted here is supposed to think is in fact what her husband/brother/imam will say for her, not what she really thinks.

    So it is a form of subtle political propaganda, because it tries to make us believe such oppression and systematic discrimination is only a matter of different cultural viewpoints, and as such should be tolerated and accepted.
    It might be only what her Imam would tell her to say, but this isn't something you can know since women in the Middle East are not allowed to express alternate views. You can say for certain that there are some women who openly rebel, but you don't have any numbers to rest your case on. And anyway, the cartoon is a commentary on Western mores, since it is not obvious that the Muslim woman is going to see the bikini-clad woman as oppressed and this will come as a surprise to Westerners. Wearing a bikini does not seem, at first glance, to be a form of oppression to Westerners.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

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