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  1. #21
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    Buuut yeah, I can only see something terrible like the future shown in "Repo Men", rashes of organ theft like a new urban legend, or what already goes on in third world countries of poor people selling body parts for short term cash.
    Yeah...this is as likely to happen as doctors deliberately killing patients to harvest their organs under the current system.

    http://www.livescience.com/4826-trut...ey-thefts.html

    I have a question. What is the difference between "cash" and "short term cash". Is "short term cash" an illusion? Does it disappear if you don't spend it right away? Or are you just trying to phrase their actions in such a way that paints them as stupid, ignorant, impulsive, and short-sighted?
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    You're making a case for outlawing all organ transplants from living people, not just transplants where people are paid.
    Oh, is that all you got from it?

    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze
    I'd be interested to see what he thinks post donorship when he's 31, 41, etc. This sounds ageist but I can't help but think the idealism and invincible feeling of youth is influencing his outlook.
    It's not ageist. It's the truth.

    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze
    I think a more apt and less sensational op-ed would have been one encouraging people to become organ donors on their driver's licenses. You might want to hold onto everything when you're alive, but afterwards someone else can use them. The gist I got from the Op-Ed is that people should re-examine the concept of organ donorship.
    I agree. I'm disappointed the NYTimes handed OpEd print-space to a naïve 21 year old kid because they went for the sensational angle rather than the credibility factor.
    "The purpose of life is to be defeated by greater and greater things." - Rainer Maria Rilke

  3. #23
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iwakar View Post
    Oh, is that all you got from it?
    There was nothing more to get.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  4. #24
    RETIRED CzeCze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Yeah...this is as likely to happen as doctors deliberately killing patients to harvest their organs under the current system.
    I skimmed that article and it was a lot of talking side stepping the question of coercion and exploitation versus outright kidnapping and theft. I say 'consent' you say 'coercion'.

    I have a question. What is the difference between "cash" and "short term cash". Is "short term cash" an illusion? Does it disappear if you don't spend it right away? Or are you just trying to phrase their actions in such a way that paints them as stupid, ignorant, impulsive, and short-sighted?
    I meant 'short term cash' versus 'long-term investment'.

    Being economically vulnerable makes you more easily exploitable. I mean, that's a hard to contest fact, right? I remember reading about an American truck driver with 3 adult dependent disabled children who took an early retirement cash out of $100,000 with *no* benefits/no pension and a few years later he had to go back to work. Which seems predictable but I guess desperation makes the carrot of a 1 time cash influx seem very irresistable.

    Similarly I read a story years ago about a poor anonymous (okay I can't remember the location) man somewhere in Latin America who agreed to donate a kidney for cash but a year later his heath was worsening preventing him from working which put his family in an even worse predicament than before.

    You can't really say that 'poverty makes people stupid' it does push people into lose/lose predicaments.
    “If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.” ― Oscar Wilde

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  5. #25
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    I skimmed that article and it was a lot of talking side stepping the question of coercion and exploitation versus outright kidnapping and theft. I say 'consent' you say 'coercion'.
    Ummm, you missed the part where pretty much all of the claims of organ theft were actually lies? The guy in London who said he was drugged and had his kidney stolen lied because he didn't think he was paid enough.

    I meant 'short term cash' versus 'long-term investment'.
    You should just use the term "cash" versus "long-term investment".

    Being economically vulnerable makes you more easily exploitable. I mean, that's a hard to contest fact, right? I remember reading about an American truck driver with 3 adult dependent disabled children who took an early retirement cash out of $100,000 with *no* benefits/no pension and a few years later he had to go back to work. Which seems predictable but I guess desperation makes the carrot of a 1 time cash influx seem very irresistable.

    Similarly I read a story years ago about a poor anonymous (okay I can't remember the location) man somewhere in Latin America who agreed to donate a kidney for cash but a year later his heath was worsening preventing him from working which put his family in an even worse predicament than before.

    You can't really say that 'poverty makes people stupid' it does push people into lose/lose predicaments.
    I don't disagree, poor people are easier to exploit. But making something like this illegal doesn't make it more difficult to exploit them. With the current system (in the US), if someone agrees to sell their kidney (illegally), but is cheated, where do they go to get justice? If the US legalized and regulated the selling of kidneys, where would a seller who is cheated go to get justice?
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  6. #26
    RETIRED CzeCze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Ummm, you missed the part where pretty much all of the claims of organ theft were actually lies? The guy in London who said he was drugged and had his kidney stolen lied because he didn't think he was paid enough.
    I watch premium cable! And I've seen 2 seasons of 'Nip/Tuck'! You can't fool me! Unless you go through every claim of organ theft and prove it was false all I can agree on is that it's a sensational and easily more sensationalized topic and urban myth.

    You should just use the term "cash" versus "long-term investment".
    "short term" is an intensifier! 'short term cash' versus 'long term investment'!

    I don't disagree, poor people are easier to exploit. But making something like this illegal doesn't make it more difficult to exploit them. With the current system (in the US), if someone agrees to sell their kidney (illegally), but is cheated, where do they go to get justice? If the US legalized and regulated the selling of kidneys, where would a seller who is cheated go to get justice?
    Well I guess they'd be up there with the drug dealers and the prostitutes. Unless you live in certain counties in Nevada.

    Seller beware!

    Also, E-bay was up on this years ago. No bartering of body parts allowed.
    “If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.” ― Oscar Wilde

    "I'm outtie 5000" ― Romulux

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  7. #27
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    [YOUTUBE="aseuTQjdV60"]It happens[/YOUTUBE]

  8. #28
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    I watch premium cable! And I've seen 2 seasons of 'Nip/Tuck'! You can't fool me! Unless you go through every claim of organ theft and prove it was false all I can agree on is that it's a sensational and easily more sensationalized topic and urban myth.
    The media loves to sensationalize, but the reality with this kind of stuff usually ends up being pretty mundane.

    Well I guess they'd be up there with the drug dealers and the prostitutes. Unless you live in certain counties in Nevada.

    Seller beware!
    Two other activities I believe should be legalized.

    Also, E-bay was up on this years ago. No bartering of body parts allowed.
    They were just complying with the law, not writing it.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  9. #29
    RETIRED CzeCze's Avatar
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    More food for thought?

    Child denied kidney transplant:

    http://gma.yahoo.com/mom-says-tot-me...-abc-news.html
    “If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.” ― Oscar Wilde

    "I'm outtie 5000" ― Romulux

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  10. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    More food for thought?

    Child denied kidney transplant:

    http://gma.yahoo.com/mom-says-tot-me...-abc-news.html
    Mia's mother Chrissy Rivera has said the family is willing to donate a live organ, but Children's Hospital of Philadelphia has reportedly told her that they will not recommend transplantation for the toddler because of her disabilities.
    When the family went to CHOP last week to discuss the transplant, Rivera said she "thought we were just finding out how transplant works and how we could be a donor."

    "But then, I was told we couldn't because she was mentally retarded," she said. "Those were the exact words on a piece of paper."

    Rivera said the doctor also mentioned the medication that Mia would have to take for the rest of her life and "how important it was she take it -- and who would make her take it when we weren't around anymore?"
    Unbelievable. The hospital's logic doesn't hold water. They're basing the refusal of the family-provided kidney donation on the fact that it would be a waste of time because the girls' mental capacities indicate she may not remember to take her life-long daily meds... on those grounds, people shouldn't get organs because they'll forget to take their meds when they get old and senile... wtf???
    "The purpose of life is to be defeated by greater and greater things." - Rainer Maria Rilke

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