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  1. #51
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reason View Post
    English people are ambivalent patriots. They're uncomfortable with overt displays of patriotism except in the context of sporting events. When English people are uncomfortable doing something, they dress it in ironic humour. For example, they'll often put a union jack on a Mini Cooper precisely because it's so diminutive; putting a similar union jack on an Aston Martin Vanquish, on the other hand, would probably be unacceptably pretentious. Symbols of English patriotism must also be used carefully because of associations with abhorrent political movements like the so-called British National Party.

    Americans don't have this problem. They are natural and earnest in their patriotism. However, that doesn't seem to entail a better grasp of history.
    Well some things can be seen this or that way. For example do americans celebrate the times of colonization tho it costed billions of Indian lifes. Same it it is with old Germans saying, during WWII everything flourished from industry to social life. That tho was because they used slave worker to build things up and if you dont have to pay attention to the health of your workers, you are of course faster.

    I rather tend to be proud of the future and learn from history. Somehow its not in my nature to be proud of something or to be happy for something that happened in the past and that is finished. I think its more important to learn from the past and to not make some mistakes again or to maintain good things from the past into the future.
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  2. #52
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Yes, obviously. There aren't italian flags everywhere (classrooms etc.), but there are more than 2 yearly celebrations, mostly connected to the modern formation of the italian state (1861) and the end of WWII.

    Actually, you know how it is in Europe. Somehow, in my region (Veneto, regional history is more celebrated than nation history, since it used to be the base of a big commercial empire in medieval times (Venice, of course). So I'd guess that many people feel strong "regional pride", but somewhat weaker "national pride".

    We also have an exaggerated amount of history classes. From 1st grade until the end of high school, we have 2 hours of history per week.
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  3. #53
    Senior Member reason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    Well some things can be seen this or that way. For example do americans celebrate the times of colonization tho it costed billions of Indian lifes.
    Kind of. It's called thanksgiving. Heh.

    Americans can have quite an abstract patriotism. For example, the U.S. flag represents an ideal United States rather than its current manifestation. This was particularly evident during the Tea Party demonstrations. These were people who were highly critical of the federal government and adamantly opposed to many of its activities, but they still flew the star and stripes.
    A criticism that can be brought against everything ought not to be brought against anything.

  4. #54
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    Americans all know their gazillion presidents from memory. They can tell you all sorts of details about important historical moments in the formation of their nation. There are American flags in every single American classroom I have ever seen. And I don't know how common this one is, but the American constitution is on the wall of every single classroom I've taught in and been a student in.
    FYI, History/Civics was the main motivation behind public education in the United States. Thomas Jefferson was the first leader who wanted it, and it was because he wanted American children to know about U.S. history and it's unique form of government. (Unique, at least, in Jefferson's time.) Public education wasn't really put into practice until a few decades afterward, but I believe the people who put it into practice were following after Jefferson's ideal.
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  5. #55
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    Now I know this doesn't generalize to every single American that ever lived, but it's common enough to note:

    Americans all know their gazillion presidents from memory. They can tell you all sorts of details about important historical moments in the formation of their nation. There are American flags in every single American classroom I have ever seen. And I don't know how common this one is, but the American constitution is on the wall of every single classroom I've taught in and been a student in.


    Is your country like this?
    Not exactly.

    To tell about France, I'd rather say my fellow men have a rather schizophrenic attitude towards the past.
    Most Frenchmen do know their history way better than most Europeans I've encountered, to an amazing level of detail and anecdotes (1). But on the other hand, most of them do not feel the need to brag about it. I'd even dare to say that, according to polls, Frenchmen are amongst the most critical of their past in the same time. We are an ambivalent nation, both depressed and joyfull, never satisfied with what we have, despite the incredible luck we have being born in France (compared to the rest of the world, realistically speaking).

    The more you know your history, the more educated you are... and the more you are able to question blind patriotism or nationalistic pride (2), I guess. And in the same time, French identity is one of the strongest in Europe, one of the most easily identifiable. There's this curious ambivalence towards an extreme degree of personal freedom... and the deep trust we have towards our State. And the same ambivalence and contradiction applies to the values we share: Liberty... and Equality. They seem to contradict every time, leaving us in an unhappy state, in a paradoxical melancholic mood. And most of us abhorr religion (barely 18% of us think God exists), another very distinctive trait especially compared to the US. We hate to be taught what we should believe in, and what leader we should blindly obey or follow, and I'd even dare to say that French individualism has no other equivalent on Earth (except maybe in the US: another paradox since we feel in the same time so close and so distant from our Western cousins).

    Anyway, we sure have an amazing number of commemorations and special days dedicated to various past historical events.

    ------

    (1) For instance, I could instantly quote every King we had, starting with the Capetian dynasty. And give you personal anecdotes even for our Middle Ages rulers, and compare their respective merits.

    (2) Especially the one you frequently witness in England, in the US or in some Scandinavian countries, which makes us sick.
    Last edited by Blackmail!; 01-24-2012 at 05:47 PM.
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  6. #56
    Whisky Old & Women Young Speed Gavroche's Avatar
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    If you are french, you are very likely do be convinced of theses things:

    -France is the country of philosophy and the "Lumière", we are the nation of Humans Rights, whe have one of the most brillant culture on earth and the glory of the French Revolution radiates in the entire world, that's why we have a big role to play on the international scene.

    -Naopoléon was a glorious hero and our glorious emperor. Unfortunately he was defeated by the evil Albion who fought "against the revolution".

    -France has won the Worl War II.

    -France have (with Cuba), the best welfare system of the world and outside of France, mothers must be prostitute to furnish healthcare to their children.

    - France produce and has always produced the best wine, the best cheese and the best chocolate of the world.

    -Need I to talk about Joan of Arc?

    Theses are examples of how we celebrate our history.
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  7. #57
    Riva
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    If you are french, you are very likely do be convinced of theses things:

    -France is the country of philosophy and the "Lumière", we are the nation of Humans Rights, whe have one of the most brillant culture on earth and the glory of the French Revolution radiates in the entire world, that's why we have a big role to play on the international scene.

    -Naopoléon was a glorious hero and our glorious emperor. Unfortunately he was defeated by the evil Albion who fought "against the revolution".

    -France has won the Worl War II.

    -France have (with Cuba), the best welfare system of the world and outside of France, mothers must be prostitute to furnish healthcare to their children.

    - France produce and has always produced the best wine, the best cheese and the best chocolate of the world.

    -Need I to talk about Joan of Arc?

    Theses are examples of how we celebrate our history.
    Oh man, I thought we were bad .

  8. #58
    Whisky Old & Women Young Speed Gavroche's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riva View Post
    Oh man, I thought we were bad .
    It's presidential elections soon. Every candidates have in common to always say and repeat theses things. They do this because first, they think it, and seceond, they know that if they say the contrary they will lose several points of popularity, which show that a strong part of french people strongly believe in theses things and refuse to lose their convictions. If you come in France today, and enter in a library, you will see tons of books recently published to celebrate Joan of Arc.

    By the way, were'nt you Indian, dude?
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  9. #59
    Riva
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    By the way, were'nt you Indian, dude?
    I don't ever remember mentioning that I was an Indian. I am Sri Lankan.
    Which concludes, that not every brown guy is Indian.

  10. #60
    Whisky Old & Women Young Speed Gavroche's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riva View Post
    I don't ever remember mentioning that I was an Indian. I am Sri Lankan.
    Which concludes, that not every brown guy is Indian.
    Of course! It's just that I remember you mentioned you lived in Columbo, so I assumed you were Indian.

    edit: I just do a research and realize that Columbo is not in India at all...
    EsTP 6w7 Sx/Sp

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