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  1. #21
    Lallygag Moderator Geoff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    Unfortunately, it's not inaccurate.
    I don't deny all the nations acted badly, but again, I challenge you on your insistence that England always behaved with genocide, and was the most barbaric that had ever existed.

    Let's consider :

    Spain's biggest conquest : the Caribbean and Central/South America

    with

    England's biggest conquest : India.

    Which one would you define as genocide?

  2. #22
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Geoff,


    This discussion will go nowhere if you hide under chauvinistic bad faith.

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff View Post
    I don't deny all the nations acted badly, but again, I challenge you on your insistence that England always behaved with genocide, and was the most barbaric that had ever existed.
    1) I said England probably was the most barbaric colonial empire that ever existed. Don't try to fiddle with my words, I don't like that.

    2) I you want the most "barbaric" overall, my guess would be the Mongols.



    Let's consider :

    Spain's biggest conquest : the Caribbean and Central/South America

    with

    England's biggest conquest : India.

    Which one would you define as genocide?
    Are you kidding me?

    India never was a settlement colony.

    You should compare what can be compared, or else it's meaningless. So for instance, since you insist, let's compare Peru and the US. What happened to the native populations?
    Yes, the Spaniards committed many mass-slaughters and various atrocities... But in 2008, half of the Peruvian population is still "purely Incan", and a third are metis.

    Do "pure" Amerindians form half of the current US and Canadian population?

    Should we talk about Australia?
    should we talk about New Zealand?

    (etc...)

    ---

    Geoff, it's time to accept the history of your nation. Should Bananatrombones say millions of Arabs died in Algeria thanks to the French military, why would I deny it? It's the truth! :sad:
    We can't change history anyway, and you're not even responsible for it. Neither me, neither you.
    So why argue?
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

    7w8 SCUxI

  3. #23
    Lallygag Moderator Geoff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    Geoff, it's time to accept the history of your nation. Should Bananatrombones say millions of arabs died in Algeria thanks to the french military, why would I deny it? It's the truth! :sad:
    We can't change history anyway, and you're not even responsible for it. Neither me, neither you.
    So why argue?
    Ah, no, you mistake me. I don't deny the history - the points about England and the slave trade is well made, for example, and the treatment of the natives in Australasia etc was appalling. I'd still say that it was no worse than the same behaviour of the other colonial powers. South America was as appalling for the Spanish, for example, Cortez was no saint!

    I think choosing to ignore England's biggest conquest, India, is just clever tactics to win an argument - so it's not a "settlement"! The actions of the colonial powers in these sort of situations are instructive.

    It's very difficult to view actions of the past in the light of today's morality. How does one reconcile Ancient Greek pedophilia, the slave trade, Roman gladiator games, the putting of entire cities to the sword. It just doesn't "fit" the modern view point. I'm able to take some comfort from the enlightened way that much of the empire was disassembled. It could have gone a whole lot worse, and a lot more bloody.

    Modern mistakes still persist though, Iraq a bad move and a harking back to a dead Empire.

    Still, you are quite right, this is all likely to go nowhere. I am guessing the French and English (a remarkably closely linked pair of countries) have already spent enough of the last 1000 years at war.

  4. #24
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    England's biggest conquest, India? They were the "biggest conquest" in terms of population, but by no means did they have much of an effect on Indian life. Northern America (USA and Canada) is clearly Britain's biggest conquest.

  5. #25
    Lallygag Moderator Geoff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badlands View Post
    England's biggest conquest, India? They were the "biggest conquest" in terms of population, but by no means did they have much of an effect on Indian life. Northern America (USA and Canada) is clearly Britain's biggest conquest.
    India was the jewel in England's crown. The real money maker, the trading empire on which much of its success was founded.

    That was my point, they ruled that country without having a huge effect on Indian Life (and were not barbaric, or genocidal).

    The USA and Canada have gone on to become - currently - bigger players on the world's stage.. but at the time, India was a massive thing for the British Empire.

    Where it later went wrong, was mostly bad and crappy management. The age old problem of Empire.

  6. #26
    Senior Member matmos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff View Post
    India was the jewel in England's crown. The real money maker, the trading empire on which much of its success was founded.
    Agreed. And *passage to India* in a strategic sense was responsible for British involvelment in in Levant and Near East. Although relatively benign by previous standards the implications of colonial rule in India had terrible implications for the Arab populations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff View Post
    Where it later went wrong, was mostly bad and crappy management. The age old problem of Empire.
    Disagree. I cannot come up with a soundbite for the decline of Empire, but WW2 would be 80% of it, with a realignment of world power in favour of the US.

    WW2 was a war of production, which the US - not Britain - financed and won. There were no *real* winners (except the US), but Britain lost WW2.

    With victory comes the spoils? There were none. Only death and debt. And loss of empire.

    Edit: 'Pax Britannica' by James Morris is a rather illuminating read: Amazon.com: Pax Britannica: Climax of an Empire: James Morris,James, Morris: Books

  7. #27
    Luctor et emergo Ezra's Avatar
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    Let me just point that I'm not referring to civilisations that conqeur. I'm referring to civilisations that were born solely out of warfare; they are doomed to fail. The US was not born out of warfare. Neither was the UK. Anyway, the UK and the US are a collection of independent "states" and countries respectively. Hence, it is unlikely that the US or the UK will "fall" as such, at least not to the extent that the Roman Empire fell. Okay, some cynics claim that the US is indeed an empire, but this is semantics fuelled by sensationalism. The US governmental system may be corrupt, but it is certainly not an empire. Citizens have more freedom than many conspiracy theorists assume (but perhaps less than many "law-abiding" citizens believe they have).

  8. #28
    Lallygag Moderator Geoff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bananatrombones View Post
    Agreed. And *passage to India* in a strategic sense was responsible for British involvelment in in Levant and Near East. Although relatively benign by previous standards the implications of colonial rule in India had terrible implications for the Arab populations.



    Disagree. I cannot come up with a soundbite for the decline of Empire, but WW2 would be 80% of it, with a realignment of world power in favour of the US.

    WW2 was a war of production, which the US - not Britain - financed and won. There were no *real* winners (except the US), but Britain lost WW2.

    With victory comes the spoils? There were none. Only death and debt. And loss of empire.

    Edit: 'Pax Britannica' by James Morris is a rather illuminating read: Amazon.com: Pax Britannica: Climax of an Empire: James Morris,James, Morris: Books
    Thanks! It's good to have a referral to a decent read on an interesting subject.

    I was driving at India in particular failing due to problems with the cumbersome administration (both in India and remotely in the UK).. this seemed to be a pretty big problem before the destructive problems of the war(s).

    The wars certainly finished off the British Empire in terms of finances and resources though.

    Did you know we finished paying the Americans for WW2? The last loan payment was made in 2006! Apparently all the WWI loans are still outstanding - ones due to us and by us, and have been since 1934, in some sort of weird limbo that nobody wants to talk about.

  9. #29
    Senior Member matmos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff View Post
    Apparently all the WWI loans are still outstanding - ones due to us and by us, and have been since 1934, in some sort of weird limbo that nobody wants to talk about.
    Touchy subject, reparations. One view is that the punitive reparations owed by Germany in WW1 led to the rise of Hitler and the start of WW2. Which was not the idea...

    A nice little summary: Reparations

    Maybe the idea is to let sleeping dogs lie.

  10. #30
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bananatrombones View Post
    Touchy subject, reparations. One view is that the punitive reparations owed by Germany in WW1 led to the rise of Hitler and the start of WW2. Which was not the idea...
    Yup. Making Germany the whipping boy for World War I ran their infrastructure into the ground, spurred anti-world sentiment, and didn't really help much otherwise.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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