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  1. #11
    Senior Member matmos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    But in the end, England won. And even if the British empire is no more
    Come, come Blackmail. There's Gibraltar - and the Falklands. Thanks to the Treaty of Utrecht, which we were fully compliant with, I might add.

  2. #12
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    I don't know, western civilization seems to have a vise-like grip on the global front, and I wouldn't expect this position to suddenly get usurped by an eastern-based one but, who knows...

    Perhaps the collapse will come from within.
    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

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  3. #13
    Senior Member matmos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainChick View Post
    western civilization seems to have a vise-like grip on the global front
    I don't know that it has. Western culture yes, but civilisation? The Chinese seem to have developed their own quite nicely.

  4. #14
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bananatrombones View Post
    the Chinese seem to have developed their own quite nicely.
    I never said anything to the contrary.
    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

  5. #15
    Senior Member matmos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainChick View Post
    I never said anything to the contrary.
    I'll clarify, with respect. China is not in the vice like grip of "western civilisation". A quarter of the world happens to be Chinese. I used China as an example, only to illustrate the point that I do not believe what you said was entirely correct.

    My sincerest apologies for any confusion.

  6. #16
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bananatrombones View Post
    Come, come Blackmail. There's Gibraltar - and the Falklands. Thanks to the Treaty of Utrecht, which we were fully compliant with, I might add.
    too!

    ---

    O, perfide Albion...

    Falklands you said? :confused:

    Falklands???

    I don't understand what this word means, I only know the Isles Malouines...
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  7. #17
    Senior Member matmos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    too!

    O, perfide Albion...
    Spot of bother you had in Algeria? The locals there weren't as friendly as the Indians you were *trying to help out* - but thwarted by Britannia on her seafairing chariot

  8. #18
    Lallygag Moderator Geoff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    But the most striking example is England. England was the most cynical, greedy, barbaric colonial power that ever existed in the history of mankind. They simply wiped out every native people they met, they never respected their treaties, they never even tried to assimilate them: natives were considered as animals, sub-humans.
    No other european colonial power went as far as Britain did.
    And you never ever exaggerate, I am sure. None of the colonial powers behaved in a way that in modern eyes is appropriate, but singling out England as successful because of excessive barbarism is inaccurate. All of Europe played that game, look at the Spanish treatment of the Natives, the French, Dutch and German treatment of Natives in the Spice Islands and Africa.

    England were arguably more successful through a combination of chance factors and some related influences - personally I'd single out its favourable location on the edge of Europe and resource/religion combination.

    Might want to consider that England was a leading power in eliminating slavery, doing so at a time when it was still acceptable practice. That isn't the hallmark of a power that is the most greedy, barbaric ever to have existed.

  9. #19
    DoubleplusUngoodNonperson
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    what is this "born out of" conquering thing? I know you know what you think it means (IE imperialism and might makes right), but let me ask you this: which civilization was NOT "Born out of" conquering in even the slightest bit?

    None, because we men are wretched things. that makes this topic boring and unstimulating

  10. #20
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff View Post
    And you never ever exaggerate, I am sure.
    No, I don't.

    None of the colonial powers behaved in a way that in modern eyes is appropriate, but singling out England as successful because of excessive barbarism is inaccurate.
    Unfortunately, it's not inaccurate.

    All of Europe played that game, look at the Spanish treatment of the Natives, the French, Dutch and German treatment of Natives in the Spice Islands and Africa.
    If the other colonial powers certainly were no saints (not at all :rolli, when british settlers arrived anywhere, it ALWAYS meant GENOCIDE.

    ALWAYS. And it was deliberate. Open your eyes.

    England were arguably more successful through a combination of chance factors and some related influences - personally I'd single out its favourable location on the edge of Europe and resource/religion combination.
    Indeed, there are many factors. Among them, the deliberate and systematic ethnic cleansing of colonized territories, something every other european colonial powers were tempted to emulate, but none really dared to go so far.
    The german colonial system in Africa (1870-1914) also produced disastrous results, but again, these events occured to a much lesser extent.

    Anyway, we're not here to turn over the long rivalry between England and the rest of the world: as I said England won. Game over.
    This is the past, and we won't change it.
    And as Bananatrombones pointed, France was no saint either in Algeria. I'm no here to say "my country" was better, I'm not a chauvinistic dork.

    Might want to consider that England was a leading power in eliminating slavery, doing so at a time when it was still acceptable practice. That isn't the hallmark of a power that is the most greedy, barbaric ever to have existed.
    The whole history of England is only based upon successive mass genocides/ethnocides: 1) Britonnic/Cymric populations, and later 2) Irish, then 3) Native Americans, 4) Aborigenous australians, and so on...

    Bananatrombones also mentioned the treaty of Utrecht (1713)... Well, it's interesting, because if it's true England tried to eliminate slavery earlier than many other countries (1807), it did it only when it was clear England couldn't make as much profits with the slave trade as it had made in the past, since it had lost the US.
    But before, Britain played the MAJOR role in the Atlantic slave trade (and precisely because of the Utrecht treaty), and as a matter of fact, the majority of black people who currently live in the Americas (and that includes Brazil) owe it to Britain.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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