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  1. #21
    Whisky Old & Women Young Speed Gavroche's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iwakar View Post
    The trouble with pornography is it's just so easy to get. It makes people socially and sexually lazy. In the past (for example), if a man was having marital troubles and his sex life was suffering, his psychosexual needs might spur him into action beyond masturbation, whether it be A) having an affair, or B) hashing things out with The Mrs.

    Pornography offers an option C in that scenario, which is shortterm gratification and avoidance of the larger problems within the relationship. Porn dilutes the need to address emotional, sexual, psychological issues that affect one-on-one intimacy and makes partnership more disposable.
    No.

    If the wife of a man is frigid, it's not because he can't buy sex that his wife will be less frigid. If his wife is an unbearable bitch, she will still be an unbearable bitch, even if the man buy sex.

    And if you knew anything about men's sexuality, you would know that they don't need pornography to masturbate.

    Most part of men who buy sex can have sex by others ways.

    There has always been two categories of men who have a hard time to have sex: thoses who can wait for a partner without seeking too much and masturbate, and thoses who can't wait without actively seek a partner, but masturbate too. Pornography don't change anything to that.

    I think capitalism is guilty of aiding and abetting this social problem, but ultimately our failure to avoid the pitfalls of our technological progress is the real matter at hand.
    Capitalism is not a person, it is the produced of spontaneous human action. You're basically saying "people have problem because they have freedom". If people are lonely, it's because they want it, not because of capitalism.
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  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    And if you knew anything about men's sexuality, you would know that they don't need pornography to masturbate.
    Your inability to disagree with people without inferring they're: inexperienced, unstable, or mentally deficient is not a worthwhile contribution to any discussion.
    "The purpose of life is to be defeated by greater and greater things." - Rainer Maria Rilke

  3. #23
    Whisky Old & Women Young Speed Gavroche's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iwakar View Post
    Your inability to disagree with people without inferring they're: inexperienced, unstable, or mentally deficient is not a worthwhile contribution to any discussion.
    Oh, I'm used to experience the same thing with people who disagree with me since theyr frequently compensate their lack of argument by ad hominem attack. When someone manifestly don't know what they're talking about, I point it, that's all, and the only wothwhile contribution to the discusion that you can do in this case is to admit it .
    EsTP 6w7 Sx/Sp

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    "I don't believe in guilt, I only believe in living on impulses"

    "Stereotypes about personality and gender turn out to be fairly accurate: ... On the binary Myers-Briggs measure, the thinking-feeling breakdown is about 30/70 for women versus 60/40 for men." ~ Bryan Caplan

  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    Oh, I'm used to experience the same thing with people who disagree with me since theyr frequently compensate their lack of argument by ad hominem attack. When someone manifestly don't know what they're talking about, I point it, that's all, and the only wothwhile contribution to the discusion that you can do in this case is to admit it .
    You did a poor job of reading my original post, which offered masturbation as being separate from and preceding pornography. Intellectualizing yourself out of having to apologize or reform your presentation style in order to be understood has landed you on my Ignore list.
    "The purpose of life is to be defeated by greater and greater things." - Rainer Maria Rilke

  5. #25
    *hmmms* theadoor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    Again, so what? If sodomy, for example, was considered as a mortal sin which send you in hell for the past, and now it's considered as a normal thing to do between people who are attracted to each other, then it's a good thing, not a wrong thing.I have the same age than you and I relate a bit on what you say. But we can see misconceptions about relationships vehiculated in every societies, in something intrinsic to a society, it does'nt depend of the economic regime in vigor. I don't think that supression or limitations of economic freedoms would solve the problem.
    I noticed that, now, sodomy, for example is considered as a normal thing. At the point that if people don't do it, they are suspected to act against their impulses or to be prude etc. Maybe the previous normative system has been reversed to become a new normative system, but I think it works above all on very young people, and it is due to progressivism, not to capitalism. Anyway, it's impossible to have a society without "norms", but an opened and free society is better.
    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    Capitalism is not a person, it is the produced of spontaneous human action. You're basically saying "people have problem because they have freedom". If people are lonely, it's because they want it, not because of capitalism.
    But freedom is indeed the problem here. Your assumptions seem logical to me, yet I can only see them being valid in case if all humans were born rational and capable of objective judgment which is derived from precise observations. Due to our limited senses, reasoning skills and the small amount of information available to us at a single moment, we have a need to build the larger picture through other sources (friends, books, other people, media). Although the picture might be distorted, we tend to trust it more, because technically it has a higher chance to be valid. The problem with capitalism and globalization is that there are so many views, cultures and contradicting ideas and they make so much noise, that we get confused. When we get confused we freeze and when we freeze we get run over. I had a nice class where a map of deaths in a pedestrian bridge collapse catastrophe were presented. It turns out that most deaths didn't occur at the actual collapse place, but at both ends of the bridge, where people in panic had to choose where to run next. Same happened in Berlin's Love Parade. I don't like to admit it, but there is some truth in the fact that once we don't have a choice, we know what's the right thing to do. If we do have a choice, we get confused and follow the crowd or freeze and get run over.
    Oh yeah?

  6. #26
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iwakar View Post
    Your inability to disagree with people without inferring they're: inexperienced, unstable, or mentally deficient is not a worthwhile contribution to any discussion.
    There's trolls and then there's obvious trolls whose trollish behaviour has been discussed openly with them dozens of times only for them to become defensive and conclude that its all evidence their suspiscion of others inferiority was correct all along. Speed is definitely in the later category of troll. Just so you know and can decide whether you want to post to them or not.

  7. #27
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by theadoor View Post
    But freedom is indeed the problem here. Your assumptions seem logical to me, yet I can only see them being valid in case if all humans were born rational and capable of objective judgment which is derived from precise observations. Due to our limited senses, reasoning skills and the small amount of information available to us at a single moment, we have a need to build the larger picture through other sources (friends, books, other people, media). Although the picture might be distorted, we tend to trust it more, because technically it has a higher chance to be valid. The problem with capitalism and globalization is that there are so many views, cultures and contradicting ideas and they make so much noise, that we get confused. When we get confused we freeze and when we freeze we get run over. I had a nice class where a map of deaths in a pedestrian bridge collapse catastrophe were presented. It turns out that most deaths didn't occur at the actual collapse place, but at both ends of the bridge, where people in panic had to choose where to run next. Same happened in Berlin's Love Parade. I don't like to admit it, but there is some truth in the fact that once we don't have a choice, we know what's the right thing to do. If we do have a choice, we get confused and follow the crowd or freeze and get run over.
    Which is just a way of saying that early capitalist ideology's naive psychological models of rational calculators with perfect information where mistaken, behavioural economics have gone some way to correcting that but its not going to acceptable to most capitalists with strong affective attachments to their beautiful ideological utopia.

    Both your post and Speed's typical responses, and those of other libertarians and capitalists generally, always begger the question with me about what is capitalism for? I can consider most of Adam Smith's writings as sincerely brilliant, he attempts to reckon with how man as he is, rather than ought to be or at his best or anything of the kind, can be motivated to act in the common good or to act in such a way which has socially beneficial consequences, even where that is not his aim. That's brilliant. However, I think that economics has ceased to be good philosophy, let alone an objective science, long ago, its been reduced to an ideology to serve vested, privileged interests.

    Marx's contribution was to pool the existing literary critics of economics as a genre, some of which knew full well the direction it had taken, he didnt actually provide much in the way of novelty himself (and probably criticised socialists as much or more, more than half of the communist manifesto is a literature review of socialist and communist books and views and he thinks they're all lousy and pale in comparison with the achievements of capitalism).

    In the end more and more I see capitalists today suggesting that if the system isnt working for people then its people that're at fault, really? Is that how it works? Is that what peoples expectations of an economy should be? Well surely that's contra the very basic demand and supply ideas informing the theories of the first capitalists? Its a little like saying that when a cars steering resulted in an accident its the drivers fault and not the cars and they should've just gotten used to the fact that the car didnt operate how the engineers imagined it should when they first constructed it.

    Markets could be a good servant but a very bad master, the sorts of servility which free marketeers want is totally out of step with their supposed libertarian credentials.

  8. #28
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    interesting article, @iwakar.

    my first muddy thoughts upon reading this are that it seems to fit into the larger picture of capitalism as i am experiencing it as a young woman in the US. essentially what i personally perceive is that the capitalistic mindset, with profit as the main goal, is driving the country into the ground. we are a gluttonous society to the point of our own detriment... the common belief we cling to is that more, more, more will bring us satisfaction, but the truth is that it is poison. we are experiencing this economic downfall in large part because we are trying to squeeze too much out of too little, and we are not willing to give back. we want continually rising CEO salaries but we are not willing to fund poor schools and repair bus shelters. we drive a stake between those who have and those who don't, creating a false rift in humanity. as with all things, we need moderation. to douse oneself in the images of pornography is to desensitize oneself to the incredibly human practice of sex.

    i read it as you did - a condemnation of capitalism with pornography as an afterthought. my main conclusion from this is how capitalism creates an illusion, a promise, of plenty - but because there is no concrete end to plenty - because there is no satisfaction - we end up damaging our selves: our finances, our health, our relationships. the US desperately needs moderation, in my opinion, in many things. we need to bridge extremes, because otherwise extremes come together - the lonely man who floods himself with porn and as such becomes lonlier, only to flood himself with more porn. the company who forces its minimum wage employees to cut their overtime while simultaneously making them responsible for more tasks, creating even more overtime to cut and more tasks. they create a downward spiral.

    i second @Lark in his concern about the pervasiveness of porn - and that the unsavoury will sell better.

    it also seems that together, capitalism and techonology have the net effect of alienating humans from one another. perhaps the concept of illusion plays into both... perhaps the concept of illusive "possession" plays into both. when you record a video of a band playing, you'll always have that experience at hand. you can always access it again; you don't fear losing it. so too with porn... you can always access it; it doesn't rely on the availability of another person. facebook lets you connect with people on your own terms as well. they give you the illusion of being in control, of having everything... even though the truth is all you have is a virtual simulacrum of what you are pretending to possess and interact with.

    tl;dr = capitalism and pornography both rely on - and have their downfall in - illusion.

  9. #29
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    it occurs to me that this might be one of those curious detriments to humans becoming sedentary and civilized, and greatly prolonging our lifespans - in addition to cancer. much of our lives is no longer lived "in the moment" - we are sacrificing the reality in life for gains in technology. i suppose the question becomes, at what point does the augmented reality no longer become worth the lost reality?

  10. #30
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    it occurs to me that this might be one of those curious detriments to humans becoming sedentary and civilized, and greatly prolonging our lifespans - in addition to cancer. much of our lives is no longer lived "in the moment" - we are sacrificing the reality in life for gains in technology. i suppose the question becomes, at what point does the augmented reality no longer become worth the lost reality?
    I think humans are just the consummate consumers, and that that is our downfall. We don't have a check on our ability to acquire because nature always provided that in the past, in the form of our environment being harsh, lack of food at times, etc. Technology has enabled us to control it more, and manipulate it so we are growing exponentially. We don't see why we shouldn't because it isn't programmed into our brains to need to. So in our myopic mindset, we call everything progress and latch onto it, leaving an invisible mess in our wake that no one cares to see.

    Technology is good, I think. We just don't like to give anything up. We are gluttonous and greedy. We want it all. If we could learn moderation and balance and humbleness, we'd be happier, and more content.
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