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  1. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elisius View Post
    @Lark On your second point regarding false statistics and demonization, do you propose rehabilitation or punitive measures against drug addicts? Are they victims of an addiction or worthless criminals? You can't have both.
    Really? Why not? I dont propose anything BTW, not in this thread because I dont want to get sidetracked, I was just responding to what I felt was a typically biased post on the topic of drugs, when I see bias I have a knee jerk reaction to try and get people to think, especially if they believe they are already doing so.

    And while harder drugs may harm you, lighter drugs are the ones that bear the brunt of the propaganda mill of the DEA and other anti-drug groups. The idea of marijuana being a gateway drug, for instance; I know many people who smoke pot and do absolutely no other drugs. Normal people like you and me, who live their lives, go to work, raise families, and smoke weed.
    The DEA would brand them criminals and penalize them for what is essentially the same as taking a drink of wine in the evening.
    The defenses of cannibas are just so many splitting hairs to me to be honest. Losing a foot is perhaps preferable to losing a leg but I think its better to remain intact to begin with.

  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by FunnyDigestion View Post
    Corporate wealth has more influence over the government than democratic procedure.

    The big power structure is too entrenched to respond to people's changing needs & wants.

    (On the other side of things, the regulatory bureaucracies are too diffuse & impenetrable for even small-scale changes to be made effectively.)

    It's nearly impossible for someone without hundreds of millions of dollars to effect any change at the national level.

    Or perhaps billions of dollars-- since without corporate support you aren't going to go anywhere.

    & lastly, people don't care enough (in my opinion justifiably, since they have barely any influence) to be involved in democratic politics, or even to vote at all.
    Government structures should be responsive to people's changing needs and wants? Elections/voting are synomynous with democracy?

  3. #23
    Senior Member Elisius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Government structures should be responsive to people's changing needs and wants? Elections/voting are synomynous with democracy?
    Yes and yes.
    The government should serve the people. An administration designed to oversee the execution of the people's interests.
    And elections and voting IS democracy, look it up in a dictionary.

  4. #24
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Democracy isn't always a "good" thing. In order for a democratic society to flourish, the citizens need to be well educated. If they're not...well...look at the US.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  5. #25
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Democracy isn't always a "good" thing. In order for a democratic society to flourish, the citizens need to be well educated. If they're not...well...look at the US.
    We said the same about WWII. If they hadnt been such sissies we had won the war. I mean the odds were like only 10:1 against us, but you cant win a war with a dumb army of sissies
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  6. #26
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Democracy isn't always a "good" thing. In order for a democratic society to flourish, the citizens need to be well educated. If they're not...well...look at the US.
    Well, it's not all bad: At least our country can serve as a warning to others.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elisius View Post
    Yes and yes.
    The government should serve the people. An administration designed to oversee the execution of the people's interests.
    And elections and voting IS democracy, look it up in a dictionary.
    I dont believe that elections and voting are anything other than elections and voting, they can be democratic, they can as easily be about diffusing democratic agitation or frustration/grievance. A neutralising mechanism and its as much the case in teams, unions or on a smaller scale as in government.

    I'm not sure I agree with you about the nature of government.

  8. #28
    Member Skip Foreplay's Avatar
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    Democracy is the only sure-fire way I know to marginalize the needs of the minority. It's like an algorithm. I'm not a fan of it personally. To answer your second question first, my opinions are almost always the result of theorizing. Whether or not something works or has worked, especially in politics, is contingent on the whims of people, and that says little for the system itself. That is, the best system of government may never work, and the worst may thrive. But I am concerned with the systems.
    There are far worse ways to run countries, and this is clear I think in theory, but this question seems to be coming from an American, am I right, Lark? The question presupposes that democracy usually is a good thing, and I am not so sure about that. Americans do tend to think that their way of doing things works out, but in most areas of social welfare, America ranks among the worst. Teen pregnancy, murder, imprisonment, healthcare - these are among the worst in the WORLD for developed countries. The system of checks and balances though - I do think that is very, very important. It is not dependent on a fully democratic process, though. Many people get their information from news on the largest 5 television stations. Though the spin is different, they are owned by the same people by and large, and a very important question is whether it is important or not those who vote on policy are actually versed in philosophy or politics. If it is, then that means trouble for a democracy.

    A democratic republic however, mitigates this problem with representatives, but notice that the problem is mitigated precisely because it moves the society farther away from democracy.

  9. #29
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    People dont like you doing drugs so you think democracy is a bad thing? Hmm, right, OK.
    If a group exercises democracy for the express purpose of increasing poverty, increasing crime, decreasing state revenue, and harming the health of the general public, then yes, that is bad.

    You started this thread, so I ask you, is democracy always a good thing, Lark?

    Is it feasible to contemplate some circumstances where a democratic vote might lead to worse circumstances? Can you contemplate this for me?

  10. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    If a group exercises democracy for the express purpose of increasing poverty, increasing crime, decreasing state revenue, and harming the health of the general public, then yes, that is bad.

    You started this thread, so I ask you, is democracy always a good thing, Lark?

    Is it feasible to contemplate some circumstances where a democratic vote might lead to worse circumstances? Can you contemplate this for me?
    I believe that democracy in practice differs greatly from democracy in theory and often there isnt a single agreed theory of democracy either, as is evident from this thread. In my understanding of democracy it is closely related to or associated with personal responsibility, individual sovereignty and social conscience, in fact I would go so far as to say it is dependent upon these interdependent norms in order to exist, on any scale.

    It is a little like what Tom Paine said about society and the state, society being a blessing but the state a necessary evil, democracy is a blessing were it exists but mostly necessary evils stand in for it. Again I'm talking at any scale.

    There are certain instances in which I believe democracy is not the best choice, for instance a family should not necessarily be a democracy, not were small children, or even adolescents are involved, because the same expectations do not exist for all involved, they dont all possess the same consequential thinking capacity etc. I would say that the same could be said for some professional teams or workplaces. Although, as a matter of principle, I think that the burden of proof in any situation where it is in question should be upon those arguing that it is not suited or will not work.

    BTW I see what you're doing with the first line of your post. Better luck next time bud.

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